TLDR;Some Good Quotes
- I think that being in a competitive space, it made sense to us to just give away the product for free to use it at a basic level. But you can't actually. Publish a native mobile app and you can't publish it on a custom domain for web unless you pay.
- So one thing is it does feel very natural for designers to use our product because it is based on sketch, essentially. But at the end of the day, it's people who are a little bit more on the PowerPoint and Excel world who seem to be excelling at it versus people who are just purely visual designers.
- If you're building a real startup, you're going to be paying thousands of dollars a month for something, regardless of what you're doing. But when you're just starting out, I think that it's important to have something cheap enough that people see as cheap, and see as attractive, and see as like within their range of affordability. But without kind of realizing that it's going to eventually be a lot more.
- We feel like our product itself matters and the quality of the way that you build the apps, the interface, all that stuff. But I think that really, you have to build some kind of flywheel that will actually generate more value as more people are there. And I think that the things that we'll do over time are just building that ecosystem and that community. And so having really trying to get more and more people involved in building knowledge around the tool, that will really build value long term.
- I was doing a lot of customized stuff just to get these very small number of customer accounts to be successful and to be published. And I feel like at that point it was a big internal struggle of, you know, how do I actually get my time back so I can build the real horror platform and actually get this thing to be successful?
- I kind of also wished that I just did some sort of launch earlier. I know that the product wasn't polished, I know that it wasn't perfect or nearly as good as it is now, but I feel like getting that early feedback would have been good because now a lot of what people are doing, doesn't really require things that we didn't have then. It's just that we didn't get the necessary, like kind of lift-off until later on. And I think that the whole no-code movement has helped out a ton. So I can't really, it's hard to say what would have happened at that point.
- The majority of our users really just come from word of mouth and referrals from other people are using the platform and kind of organic sources like that. So, we've really kind of tried to put as much effort as we can into building our communities, both on slide, head on the forum and, you know, really building a big Twitter following.
Jeremy Blalock, co-founder and CEO from Adalo, joins Jeremy in a conversation about the turnarounds and creatives process to launch the company and the importance of having a strength no-code community to strengthen the bonds with customers and succeed in the field.
Interview with Jeremy Blalock from Adalo
Jeremy: [00:00:00] Hey everybody. And welcome to the not boring business podcast. I'm your host, Jeremy Redmon, founder of your dot com. This is not suits and handshakes business. This is not boring business. Let's go.
No sounds good. This is our, this is already me regretting not pushing record before. Yeah, no. So, uh, I have, I founded your last April. Um, so we've moved kind of fast at the same time. Like nothing's really figured out. Um, but I have built three. Tech companies with no code tech and they were all six figures.
Yeah. So like, I don't think anyone else on earth can stake claim to that.
Jeremy Blalock: [00:01:05] That's fair. I know the one that I always hear of is terror. Read of apps without code. Supposedly may have million dollars a year in revenue, but I don't know that there are that many out there.
Jeremy: [00:01:15] Like, is she, she's just talking about like her company.
Jeremy Blalock: [00:01:19] Yeah, that she, I think she made a, she made a product that either went through 500 startups or Y Combinator and then, um, makes money with it now. But I don't know, is that
Jeremy: [00:01:29] okay? So she has one, like I have three,
Jeremy Blalock: [00:01:34] right, right.
Jeremy: [00:01:34] And on the way to being four. So it's pretty, I'm pretty impressed with myself. Like I, and I think I just read an article, which is one thing.
I mean, why don't we kick it off this way? That like for you and I to discuss if you can make money being in a no-code cause I just, or building a no-code startup. Yep. Like there's obviously it's good to get you 80% of the way there, or, um, get you a little money in the door. Right. But can you build a career out of it?
And I was just reading an article or I was talking with someone about this, like in the no-code space. About, can you make enough money and make a living doing no code things? Yeah. So like, I'd like to start, let's just start there really fast and then we'll go back and then we'll go into your story. So what do you think about that?
Jeremy Blalock: [00:02:30] Yeah, for sure. So I know that I know that there are several founders who have built or are building startups currently out of doll. And a bunch of them are full time on those startups. I also know that. So we recently launched our experts program, which basically gives our users access to really good skill to dollar users, right?
People who have built several apps and publish in the app stores and all that. Now we have a marketplace of experts so that users can find experts to help work through their problems basically. And a lot of those experts do no-code stuff full time. A lot of them are not exclusive to a dollar, but a lot of them are like new hood agencies and things like that.
Jeremy: [00:03:09] So was it like a forum or a, like an actual marketplace?
Jeremy Blalock: [00:03:13] So we, we do have a forum, which is pretty active now, but that, that part is just like an actual market wise. It's pretty lightweight at this point. It's just a page on our website that has all of our top experts in a way for you to get in touch with them.
Jeremy: [00:03:25] dude, that's an amazing feature. Like I think, um, you guys are probably farther product-wise I think, than we are, maybe like. And I have no idea. Like I go on your website. I love everything. I love your entire website. Yeah.
Jeremy Blalock: [00:03:42] I mean, I haven't, I haven't played with your tool at all, so that's hard to say, but I know that we're kind of where we're really strong right now is, you know, we're a cross platform tool, so it works on iOS, Android, and web.
And we're also pretty flexible in terms of the data model and the design side, both. Um, so you can. You can really make your app fully customized. And I think that's not the case with some of the other, like I asked the previous generation of no hood tools with the current generation of tools. A lot of them are like that, but we're the only one that's really the class, the cross platform tool that lets you do iOS, Android, or web.
And that's beneficial because if you're building a startup, usually you want it to be present in all of those areas. Right? You want a web app that people can use if they're on their computer. And you want an Android and iOS apps if they're out in the world doing something. So that's, I think that's really our advantage at this point, but, um,
Jeremy: [00:04:36] that's a huge advantage, like, and I think that's an incredibly good, like step, like it's, uh, we started as more like a concierge thing where like people would simply type their idea in, and it would be more of a I'm feeling lucky, Google results.
Yeah. And like we'd put shit together with our builder and
Jeremy Blalock: [00:04:59] give it to them. Yeah.
Jeremy: [00:05:01] So like we were using our tool is just an internal tool and we're all nontechnical. So we were saying, cool, here pay this for a little while. And then we became more like, we're like, cool. We can just give this to other people, but they don't know what we know.
Right. So in this no-code space, how often are you? Because you're technical, right. So how often are you like injecting your technical expertise versus listening to the customer going? We want to see this. And how often are you implementing this stuff that the customers are saying versus
Jeremy Blalock: [00:05:37] like a lot of, a lot of what we build is based on what our customers directly ask for or what we can, the thing is that we hear a lot, you know, um, we.
We have a site called ideas, dot a dollar.com where you can submit feedback and submit app ideas or not really app it is, but feature ideas for a dollar. And then other people can upload those. And we use that in our planning process to help figure out what to build. And, uh, that's, that's definitely very important to us from pretty early on.
And we, so we did a similar thing to what you did early on. We launched sort of an agency and we built apps for people. We built probably eight to 10 of those and published some of the app stores, some Android, some iOS, some web, but then really just got a lot of feedback. And a lot of, we learned a lot as a, as a group about what people are trying to build and how to build those features and how to do it well.
Right. So that's, that was kind of what we were doing at this point last year,
Jeremy: [00:06:34] all of this point last year. Okay. Wait, so when did you launch your thing? Like,
Jeremy Blalock: [00:06:38] so we, we really launched the. I guess if you want to call it the consumer side or the do it yourself, we, we kinda soft launched it in June of last year, but then we didn't actually push it anywhere besides me, her pad.
Um, and then we did a big product, hot launch and got a little bit of press back in November.
Jeremy: [00:06:56] Uh, wait. So the product launch was in November. Yeah. And then I missed the first date.
Jeremy Blalock: [00:07:03] Um, so back in. End of may, beginning of June of last year, we pushed it out on may her pad. So made her pads, the biggest neighborhood and community that probably most of your audience is familiar with at this point.
But, um, they, they helped us get some initial users and a lot of feedback, but not the kind of numbers that we got when we actually did her launch.
Jeremy: [00:07:23] So like how many users do you have right now?
Jeremy Blalock: [00:07:25] So right now, I think last I checked it's somewhere around 20 or 30,000.
Jeremy: [00:07:30] Oh, nice. Like all on paid plans or do you have a
Jeremy Blalock: [00:07:34] freemium or paid plans is a lot lower.
Um, were by the time you lost that, I'm not sure what, but, um, we, we have about 400 paying customers at this point.
Jeremy: [00:07:45] Oh, nice. Okay. I've always thought about like, I don't want to, I never wanted to give away like a freemium version. Yeah. Like have you seen benefits of giving away a freemium version? Like. Have you seen that?
Is there a correlation?
Jeremy Blalock: [00:08:02] Yeah, so I, I think that there's, it definitely was a conscious decision to make because when we initially launched the, do it yourself builder, um, we launched it as a free trial, but then you had to pay to convert and we saw super low conversion rates because I think we weren't hitting a broad enough audience.
And in order to do that, we figured the best way would be to follow what developer tools have done and developer tools. I've always been. Freemium, you know, large mass audience. And then, you know, you actually get money from, you know, the small minority who want the additional, more advanced feature set or who get far enough that they actually need to pay to get whatever else is behind the paywall.
Right? Yeah. But we, I think that being in a competitive space, it made sense to us to just give away the product for free to use it at a basic level. But you can't actually. Publish a native mobile app and you can't publish it on a custom domain for web unless you pay. So those are the main, the main triggers right now that drive people to pay is they want to publish the iOS or Android after they've been testing it as a progressive web app for awhile.
Jeremy: [00:09:07] So do you have, do you have like a submission fee? When do they push to Android or iOS?
Jeremy Blalock: [00:09:12] No. So you have to pay for an Apple or Android account if you want to, or sorry, a Google play account, if you want to actually publish, but we don't have any additional fees. It's just. Once you're on the pain plan, you can publish as many times as you want.
Jeremy: [00:09:26] Tell me this. Uh, so we we've like we did that, like a one push thing, like, but we charge for it. So like, if you build in, you can bring your designs or whatever. And I actually really, like, I was watching, I don't know, like a Twitter video or something. I find you on Twitter and it's like, I'm a fan of what I, I don't, I don't naysay competition or do anything.
Right. Like, I believe everyone can have their own million users doing whatever, right? Like I'm a fan of the no code community more than I am anything else. So like we allow people, we allow people to like push, right? Like, and at the beginning it was push from our, to our account. Yeah, right. Like, cause they would just all go to like our app store, right?
Like our, like your, if you one like under us, so it saved them that Hunter bucks, they're like, cool. We'll just have that a hundred bucks as like a submission fee. Um, and we were doing all that shit manual man, like, and I fucking love the idea of like you do, you know, the term Flintstone startup,
Jeremy Blalock: [00:10:37] where it's basically just a very.
And interface on top of, you know, helping people doing anything
Jeremy: [00:10:44] like you having an interface of something, but the background is you fucking manually, like in a Google Excel spreadsheet, like, do you have those stories? Like when did you fully become that automated, like, cool, you can go in, you can use it.
You can, uh, you can design what you want, plug and pull, push and play. Like at what point did you reach that? And like, did you have one of those early stories where you're like,
Jeremy Blalock: [00:11:12] I mean, honestly, when we, when we did our launch in November, we were still doing manual builds. So for iOS and Android, I think Android was out by then where it was fully automated, but iOS was still not because you're probably familiar.
Automating iOS is a lot harder just based on the fact that everything is proprietary and you have to do it on a Mac computer, and you can't do it on a server easily. And that kind of thing. But. Um,
Jeremy: [00:11:34] did you set up a virtual, private, like Mac machine to do it?
Jeremy Blalock: [00:11:37] So as a result, now, all our builds are happening on a, on a Mac mini server.
That's based somewhere in Las Vegas and, uh, you know, it all, it all happens very smoothly now, but it took a while to get there. And I think that was, that was probably sometime in December, that that actually really got up and running for the fully automated builds. And then there were pieces even then that weren't quite ready yet.
So doing the push notification certificates and doing. Things like that took a little bit longer to actually get working properly. And the other thing was, I think, getting for Apple, I don't know if, I don't know if you guys have this, but um, for individual accounts, they always have two factor authentication enabled.
And so for iOS, when you're logging in and actually do the automated build, you need to just get that two factor part automated as well, which is a real pain.
Jeremy: [00:12:24] It is a fucking pain in the ass. Like that's why we thought, okay, it's easier just to push to our account. Yeah. Right. So how you are, by the way, my favorite would be corollary or competitor, like Baba.
It's good to know like fully full disclosure. Like I absolutely, I like how your, we made it easy. Like we, we say designs into apps. Right. But like, you actually have like a, it's almost like a designer background, like behind it. Right? Like you have art boards. Right. And I thought that was really cool. Like, I go, Oh, I get it.
Like you get like the ScreenFlow and stuff. And like, just in like my experience, I feel like that would confuse some, one of my people, like, cause we started this accelerator for like nontechnical people to learn what those nontechnical and know coders have, like or what they want or what they, what they're easy at.
And I figure out that like, No one knows how, just some simple, like, I don't know if you came across some of these things too, and you can share, but like with no coder, a nontechnical person, they didn't even know that how hard the app store was or that an app needed to be hosted itself.
Jeremy Blalock: [00:13:43] Yep. Right.
Jeremy: [00:13:44] So like all the apps that are like on a freemium model, right?
Like, are those apps, those apps aren't hosted. How do you handle that? Or how do you handle that education with your,
Jeremy Blalock: [00:13:54] like a lot of your customers. Yeah. So we've, we've experimented around with a couple of different things around how we price all of that. And we were initially getting some, I'd say, when we were doing the agency stuff still, there wasn't really an issue cause we could explain it to them.
But when we first launched, you know, the more self-serve side, we were hitting a lot of questions around. Why do I keep paying you after it's in the app store? Isn't the app done? Isn't it finished? And so we had to really explain to people as well. Yes, the front end of the app is in the app store, but it has all the data hosted in a database.
You have to pay for that. And obviously also we collect analytics and share that data with you. So there's a lot of things that we're still doing in the background, as well as giving you the ability to make changes and publish those changes over time. Right. So, yeah, it's, it is definitely education and I, I thought it was funny.
Um, I can't remember reserved for somebody else where first it shows. What does this cost, if you're not doing it with no code, and then they let you see the actual pricing page. Was that, was that your
Jeremy: [00:14:51] yeah, I have, yeah, like I have the alternatives. Yeah. So like, and it's funny when I ha I talk with investors or wherever, like I told you, we're in the launch accelerator and I go, I know the people that land on our stuff and
Jeremy Blalock: [00:15:06] convert.
Jeremy: [00:15:06] Yup. Right. Like I know those people. So like as much as people, people. Research their competitors and research like what it is and like how they want to do it. And like, I just know we convert people that know, it costs a shit ton of money to build an app or to outsource to India. And I've done all of these things.
So it is funny that like, like once they go, I've tried all of these. Oh my God. And they talk to me in the chat or whatever it is. It's like, those people are a little easier to convert. Right. Like, have you experienced a lot of those people that go, I thought it was going to be 50 grand. Oh my God. I
Jeremy Blalock: [00:15:45] built this with a dollar.
Yeah. I mean, it's for us, it's a little bit, it's a little bit of that. And it's a little bit of the slightly more sophisticated people who just want to do it themselves. And they didn't like the idea of outsourcing or having to pay anybody else because. Being like after launching this self serve stuff, it really shifted from originally a lot of people who were solo founders.
And hadn't tried to find a CTO many times or had tried to pay a developer in India or Ukraine to build something, but it hadn't worked super well. There was some of that. Um, but after launching it, it seems like it's a lot more than people who are just self starters and sure. They probably could have done that, but they're just interested in the idea of building with no code and they liked the idea that they can do it themselves.
And I think that that's, that's really appealing to people. So it's like, I understand it's a little bit different audience, but I think they're both valid. I think the one you have probably pays more per person on average too. So
Jeremy: [00:16:38] it does like, and it's fun when you, that's a funny thing. It's a funny thing that you notice, which is like when they, when they believe, and they know that their alternative was paying 60 K, like it's like cool.
Nine 97 with a little concierge behind it. Yup. As like, or you can downgrade to the 40 or so then you've anchored the price. Right. And you're like, so some things have worked out in our favor, but other things have not right. Like having that service on top of the actual builder. Right? Yep. Um, where I dunno, it's just, it's funny.
We all started a weird place and then build these, build these solutions. So I want to go back to how you started.
Jeremy Blalock: [00:17:23] Right. Yeah. Sure.
Jeremy: [00:17:24] So you started this, walk me through like, uh, where you were a little bit in your journey.
Jeremy Blalock: [00:17:29] Yeah. I mean, when I, when I started the company, I had been working previously at a company called Cenac, which is in a totally different space.
They're, uh, they're basically a security company that helps large enterprises test their software and make sure there was no vulnerabilities in it. Um, but. What I had basically seen is that there was a whole rise of design tools, things like envision and FEMA and framer studio that basically lets you build these really high fidelity prototypes.
And I have a little bit of design background in additional in addition to being a software developer. And so I had kind of interacted with those tools quite a bit. And just seeing the magic of you take a static mock up and. Slice it up a little bit and add some links and you basically have a working app that doesn't really do anything, but it looks like it does.
And so what I wanted to do when I first started working on this was basically take all that magic that they had and just add the actual functionality layer on top of it. So rather than being a static prototype, it was an actual working product and it had real data. It had texts that wrapped on multiple lines and all that.
So the first version I built actually was I think, a little more similar to what you're building now. It was a import from sketch and you import from sketch and hook everything up with data. And then, you know, you have a working app, but, uh, what, what I found pretty early on is that designers didn't seem to be the primary audiences.
So the design import part kinda has taken a back seat as a result of that. Um,
Jeremy: [00:18:53] I feel like you have design though, built so well
Jeremy Blalock: [00:18:56] into it, right? So one thing is it does feel very natural for designers to use our product because it is based on sketch essentially. But at the end of the day, it's people who are a little bit more on the PowerPoint and Excel world who seem to be excelling at it versus people who are just purely visual designers.
Jeremy: [00:19:14] Interesting. Yeah. Like the majority of our customers have been like the no coders. They haven't necessarily been designers, but like I took the, I took the path where it's like, cool. Most of our people know how to design something. That's where a non technical person. Always starts, right? So it's like not pushing the designer, choosing for designers to do X or Y or Z.
It's like these, this is where you should start. This is how I started as a nontechnical person. And then everything I farmed out at the beginning, you can just build in here,
Jeremy Blalock: [00:19:53] right. One or a dollar that's. That's kinda what I, what I learned early on too, was. Um, the people who are good at it are decent at design, but it's not that they have like a UX designer, UI design background necessarily it's that they pick that up as a self starter kind of thing.
Right. It's right. It's really, that will to do something in yourself that I think basically successful on any of these platforms.
Jeremy: [00:20:16] I agree. So like, okay, so you started this, you worked at that company. How did this come about? How did you meet your co founders?
Jeremy Blalock: [00:20:23] Yeah. So I, that was back in 2017. I, I quit my job at Cenac and I went out on my own.
Um, didn't really know that I was into this yet. I had a couple ideas and this is, this was definitely the front runner, but that was it. Wasn't the only thing on my mind. And I hadn't played around with a few things for a couple months and about three months in, I was like, okay, I need to actually do something.
And this is, this is what I really want to do. It's it combines all my strengths really well. So I decided to do it. The decided I would build a prototype in a week and see where I could get. I, uh, about, about six months later, I figured out I actually finally had something. So it took me a while and a lot longer than I thought it would, but got to the point where I was able to get into an incubator, um, in Berkeley, when I still lived in the Bay area and was working on it just completely by myself.
But I had a couple of beta customers, unpaid, just, you know, users that were, that were building stuff. And they were at that point, Ashley. Building on their own, who hadn't adopted the agency model yet until my cofounders came on. But there were just a couple of people, super limited numbers and doing some cool stuff, but it clearly needed a lot more finesse before we got anywhere.
And then about a, about a year into working on the project, I met my two cofounders who had been working on a similar project already on their own. So it was kind of like a meeting of the minds where they had thought about it a lot from a different perspective, but had a lot of the same things that they wanted to do and had had designed out and stuff.
And they, they basically had come from it from a more of an email marketing standpoint so that our previous company was an email marketing tool that lets you basically, um, it allowed you to build out emails and, you know, surveys and that kind of thing for primarily targeted towards newspapers and television stations.
But they basically saw that the tools they were building could be applied to building apps instead of just emails and surveys. And so they took what they had done and kind of pivoted it that way. But, um, when I met David, one of the, two of them, he had quit his job three days before. And I met, it's kind of funny that you said you were in launch because I met him when I was at the launch, um, launch scale event.
So shit, I was, I was there in San Francisco, like in the mall. That's, it's hosted in a mall in San Francisco and I was, I met somebody who was like, Hey, you know, I met this other guy, who's working on something very similar to what you're doing. You should talk to him. So I asked her to give him, or give me his name.
I'm connected with him on LinkedIn and had like a two hour video call where we just hashed everything out. And he was like, Oh, Hey, you should come to my house and sleep on my couch. And so I, I floated to st. Louis the next week and hung out with him a bunch. It's been the other, the other health vendor who worked with David previously.
He was still working at second street where they both used to work. Um, and cause he was a little higher up in the company, but. He eventually was convinced to leave, also come and join us. And so by January of 2019, we were, we were all working together full time. And
Jeremy: [00:23:12] is it just you three at the company right now, or have you hired
Jeremy Blalock: [00:23:15] we've hired a little bit.
It was, it was just us three until June 1st of last year. And then we hired, we brought on two interns last summer, but then we, we hired a designer who just was helping with that agency stuff a lot. And then we hired a, another developer in June and then. The team is now 11 people. So it's expanded a little bit since then.
Jeremy: [00:23:35] Oh shit.
Jeremy Blalock: [00:23:36] Nice to now we're just trying to move as fast as we can. And, you know, I don't even think we have enough right now, but,
Jeremy: [00:23:42] well, I think that's, that's part of it. Like, so did you raise, I think we talked about you raising a decent little chunk. Yeah.
Jeremy Blalock: [00:23:51] We raised a little bit of money in March and then we raised a little bit more in December, um, just to kinda fuel our growth and obviously.
It's it's helped a lot. Um, it's enabled us to still have like over a million dollars in the bank of the spine. So we have plenty of runway. Um, but it's, it still feels like all, everybody else in this space is moving super fast and we have to try and keep up with that.
Jeremy: [00:24:16] Yeah. I think like I go back and forth with that.
I really do like founder to founder, CEO, to CEO of no code startup, which are probably competitors, is like, you think that. It is so funny to see this growth over everything. At the same time, I haven't seen anyone be more capital efficient than I have. Right. Like, I, I don't know what it is. So like while all of these other people are like trying to kill all the, all these other people, I know I have more MRR than like a shit ton of like any no-code people.
Yeah. So it's so funny to see. At the same time. I have not marketed once really outside of like a couple of email lists. And I've just like been growing organically. I think there's something to be said for that thoughtful growth versus like this essential, what all these VCs. Bitch about, which is this land to grab.
And it's like land grab motherfucker bubble has been around for six, seven years. I think they are the eight years. They are still like, I get customers. I'm sure you get customers from bubble.
Jeremy Blalock: [00:25:31] Yup.
Jeremy: [00:25:32] Like they are so technical. It's disgusting.
Jeremy Blalock: [00:25:35] Yeah. So like, it's funny. We now have, I think we. Well, we looked last and they announced sometime last week that they had 400,000 users and we've already, we've already gotten almost 10% of that in four or five, five months of being watched now.
Right. So it's kind of scary to think
Jeremy: [00:25:52] about that is nuts. That is insane, right? Like I think we've crossed 200 paid users.
Jeremy Blalock: [00:26:01] Yeah. But like,
Jeremy: [00:26:02] I think our plans are. Like, it's weird. We've even found hundreds of people at our prices. You know what I mean? We have 100 a month and we don't have a freemium. Yup. So like, and that's what I think is hilarious.
Right? Like we haven't used any like incentivizing referrals or anything, any of that stuff. Yep. So like thinking about like what models are, and I constantly get told, Oh, your prices are high. Well, are they well, are they. Right. Like, is, is it a different niche? Are we serving a different kind of person, a more serious person who will commit longer?
Like I dude, one of our, I won't say our, but they're in the no-code space. They essentially turn a Shopify store into an app. This is fucking insane. Like people ready for this, their lowest price is $99 a month. And then they have a one 99 plan and a nine 99 plan.
Jeremy Blalock: [00:26:58] Yep.
Jeremy: [00:26:58] And you're like, you tell me that I'm too expensive, right?
Like, so you're thinking, and they just raised like five or 6 million. And like, they're like making money, hand over fist. So like, have you, how have you figured your pricing? Right? Like, and pricing, no code tools, which all of these are. And all the, and I don't do as much research as I should, but like, I do love your product.
If I was, if I was going to use any product that I wasn't building, like your V one is obviously my favorite. My favorite B dude is a dollar like I'm dead serious. I think it's a great product. And like, I would buy it if I wasn't building one.
Jeremy Blalock: [00:27:40] So like the here
Jeremy: [00:27:41] it's like, uh, so how did you figure out, like pricing and the market?
Were you listening to people? Like how, how did you figure that? Like, will prices change? How are you adapting and experimenting
Jeremy Blalock: [00:27:52] with said no, but it's, it's pretty important to us that, well, early on, we had a higher price point than we do now. Um, it started at about $200 a month and we obviously had the free plan that was always there, but we, we then kind of.
Learned from the audience that $200 a month worked for some of our customers, but it didn't always work for all of them. And a lot of them just weren't weren't ready to pay that because it seems, it seems more like a car payment than it does like an internet plan or a phone bill. Right, right. So it's, I think it's really just psychological.
If you're building a real startup, you're going to be paying thousands of dollars a month for something, regardless of what you're doing. Right. But when you're just starting out, I think that it's important to have something cheap enough that people. See as cheap and see as attractive and see as like within their range of affordability.
Um, but without, without kind of realizing that it's going to eventually be a lot more, but that being said, like, we're trying to be, we're trying to be very fair in how we're pricing it. I think that some of the changes we're going to make soon are here to enable us to be even a little bit cheaper on the, on the starting out in.
So you can get some basic functionality. For less than her, her prices. Sure. But then also, so that you can get more functionality, which a lot of people are asking for, but we don't have a good answer to right now by paying a little bit more on being on more of an enterprise type plan.
Jeremy: [00:29:12] Yeah. I always thought that was, I think that's a smart strategy.
Like, especially when it comes to price experimentation, um, I think some people throw money at it, right. Like where we haven't raised anything. Right. Like next to nothing, the launch money and another like 50 K check. Right. So for us, we've been able to get to our 50 K a month 60, something like that a month in recurring.
And guess how much we've turned total, total churn, dude,
Jeremy Blalock: [00:29:47] total churn. What is it?
Jeremy: [00:29:50] 2%
Jeremy Blalock: [00:29:52] damn. That's pretty good.
Jeremy: [00:29:53] 2% in like 12 months. So like, dude, and I'm telling you, I have a goal and those goals aren't necessarily aligned with a venture capitalist. Right? So like I have these things where I'm like, I want to create this really cool community.
Like I want to create a really cool product and I want to make some money and I want to return some money, right. To the people who invested. So like sometimes those are misaligned with a venture capitalist.
Jeremy Blalock: [00:30:20] Right. Right, right.
Jeremy: [00:30:21] Where do you feel that pressure? Well, I guess was the one point, whatever you raised last year, was that all from VC money or angel money and how do those pressures stack up to what you're building?
Jeremy Blalock: [00:30:33] Yeah, so some of that was from VC and then the rest was angel. Okay. Close to half was Angelo and the rest was VC. So. We, I mean, I think that personally I put the same kind of pressure on myself that VCs would. So that's actually not so much of a big deal. My background, I mean, I've been in the Bay area prior to moving to st.
Louis. I was in the Bay area for nine years. And so it was pretty ingrained in me that, you know, you should do certain things, but I mean, I definitely see the flip side of it too. Like you're saying, you know, you, you can build sustainably, you can grow sometimes. Just as fast in terms of revenue, even if you're a little less visible in the, in the public sphere, by just like a paid only type type of approach.
Um, but I think that what I think is I don't think it's really placed in a undue burden on us. I think that it's, it's probably helped us in terms of strategy a little bit, because some of our investors are pretty, pretty good at what they do. But I do. I do see it for a lot of other companies that, that does have a huge impact.
Jeremy: [00:31:35] Interesting. Like I always think it's like, I just heard a, I forgot who I was talking with. Um, I don't know if it was a podcast guest or not. And they were telling me like, some VC was like pushing, like went to zero on a $20 million a year company. Cause it wasn't going to be a unicorn and you're like, Jesus Christ, like.
I would take a 20, $30 million a year company that might not be enough for VC. Right. But like that's enough to create over a hundred jobs like to create and sustain a hundred jobs versus going out of business.
Jeremy Blalock: [00:32:12] Right? No, I a hundred percent agree with that. I think that sometimes there are weird types of incentives that can come into play.
Right now for us, we don't really have too much of that just because the amounts that were raised were have small still. Sure, sure. No, nobody, nobody, no. Single person has, you know, more equity than I do. Nobody has more than 25% of any that I think the, the biggest venture stake has is a lot smaller than that.
So, um, it's as a result, we've had a lot of flexibility, but, um,
Jeremy: [00:32:42] so no you're saying no one can like. Put their, put their thumb on you and go, Nope, you're going to do it this way. They don't have any say yet.
Jeremy Blalock: [00:32:50] I'm sure they had tried it. And I'm sure that, you know, that would be, if somebody thought we were doing the wrong thing, I'm sure they would voice that.
But at the end of the day, we've tried to maintain some level of autonomy where we can make decisions as, as the founders, um, and have those have those fly. But I think that obviously that changes as you grow more, as you get bigger, as you raise more money. Absolutely. And that changes all of that.
Jeremy: [00:33:15] That's so true.
I guess that's a, that's a really great point. I, I feel like I'm a control motivated founder, right? Like, versus like, I don't have a co founder you have to, right? Yeah. So like, I've been, I've been this fucking rogue motherfucker, like where I'm just like an entrepreneur and I'll fucking beat my head against a wall and I will, I will entrepreneur.
Yeah, right. Like, I, I have been a broke entrepreneur for five years. You know, everything I get goes back into the company, I've bootstrapped everything. And outside of this, where I'm like finally looking at, at legitimately decent into the six figures of revenue, or sorry, like into the six figures of like in the bank account.
Right? Like you, you have more in the bank, but you're probably burning more. Probably right. So like, I think about like 11 people versus like what we're doing with, like, I think we have four
Jeremy Blalock: [00:34:13] Yeah.
Jeremy: [00:34:13] So like, and I don't even see, I don't even, I try to like, see what's coming down the pipeline, what's coming down and are we meeting the demand with the resources we have?
And is there like a fluctuation there? Is there like an inflection point? How do you see. The, the no-code ecosystem coming down versus what you can actually match that demand with, with your product.
Jeremy Blalock: [00:34:40] I mean, in terms of, in terms of you're saying, what does the market need? How do we match that?
Jeremy: [00:34:45] How do you match that market demand?
Do you see what you're it's like, for instance, I'm thinking there is a product that you can build, right? And you can only build so much. Right. You can only make it extensible so much. You can only build so many modules because one thing I learned and you probably learned this as well, um, was you can build 80% of apps with like 20 functions.
Right. Changing words to it, right? Like list views. You can have different views of things. Right. Which is fine. It's just styling. Yep. But like, and you can make 80% of the world's apps with 20%. Right. So it's funny that like, at some point you're like, what do we make these apps AR VR. Okay. Those are two modules, right?
There are two blocks that we can drag and drop and play. What then becomes the product, right? Is it the brand? Is it market demand? Because the demand is there to build things. So like, is it just brand and marketing? How do you see that product getting to a certain point? And then it just becomes in my head and you can tell me what you think, but to me it just becomes sales and retaining the people that you currently have on.
Jeremy Blalock: [00:36:03] Yeah. I mean, I think that there's, there's a couple of things that we think about in terms of how we, how we build a longterm durable product that will be a market leader for the long term. I think that. Definitely. We feel like our product itself matters and the quality of the way that you build the apps, the interface, all that stuff.
But I think that really, you have to build some kind of flywheel that will actually generate more value as more people are there. And I think that the things that we'll we'll do that over time are just building that ecosystem and that community. And so having really trying to get more and more people involved in building knowledge around the tool, Yeah, that will really, that really build value longterm.
And we also have some product features we're working on that when they come out. I think we'll add a lot of that kind of those kinds of effects also.
Jeremy: [00:36:51] Yeah, absolutely. Like how much runway do you give yourself? Like, do you actually think, okay. We have, at some point we need to get to, we need to pay back our investors.
We need to do X, Y, Z, like. Where do you see that journey going? As far as like raising, are you currently raising more money? Like where are you in that fundraising
Jeremy Blalock: [00:37:12] journey? Yeah, so we're, we're not really currently raising money now. We, we closed a little bit of money at the beginning of this year. Um, we, we have enough money to last us a while at this point.
And honestly, at the, at the growth rate we're at currently, we could. Theoretically lasts forever by becoming profitable. Amen son next year. But, um, we'll, we'll just have to decide at that point, what makes sense and whether it makes sense to take out more money and a little more dilution in order to grow faster or keep growing at a sustainable rate.
Jeremy: [00:37:44] do you have, do you have like, uh, when you raised that the, did you raise it in different times? Was it like all one note?
Jeremy Blalock: [00:37:54] Yes. We took a couple of notes, um, at the. Last year at about this time last year. And then we, you know, did, did more in December, so,
Jeremy: [00:38:04] Oh, got you. Okay. So it wasn't like one big price round that lasted a year or
Jeremy Blalock: [00:38:09] something.
I mean, it was, it ended up culminating enterprise round, but I started out as notes.
Jeremy: [00:38:14] Got you. Okay. That is, that is some of the shit that I'm just like as a peer driven entrepreneur, right? Like I need, I, it is everything I've gotten fired from every job. That I've ever had, man. Like, I just want to build shit.
I just want to do, I want to build shit and I want to sell that shit. Like, that's it, that's all, I don't want to mess around with investors really, honestly. Right. Like if it's easy and it's, they're terrific. I'll let you come in. Right. But if it's, if it's like, I got to sing and dance for, you know what I mean?
Like, I feel like every single. At every single hour or every single minute I spend with investors, I could have been spending, chasing customers.
Jeremy Blalock: [00:38:55] Like, I mean, I definitely, I definitely think there's some of that. And I think that early on, I got probably a little too swept up in talking to people, talking to investors a lot, um, around maybe December, January, February of 2018, 19.
Um, when we clearly were not here to raise from investors at that point, Even though we had the team, you know, we had the, the three cofounders were there, but we didn't really have any paying customers. And we didn't really have, you know, the product wasn't fully launched. So there wasn't really anything that would generate a lot of interest from investors, but we still put a lot of effort into that.
And I think that was, that was probably a mistake. Really. There's a point where it goes from being easy or it goes from being really hard to talk to people. And you're trying to just figure out the pitch and everything you say is a little bit often about our, what you say. To it being a lot easier and everything you say is kind of in the right direction, regardless of what you say.
Right? So I think there's, it's, it's a combination of when your pitch gets good enough, but also just your product hits a certain milestone and all of a sudden it's appealing and it doesn't really make sense to try and raise money before that. And that's a lot of, a lot of my friends who've gone through this journey as well.
Like I've, I've kind of tried to tell them, you know, you will see from your first five investor meetings that either. People will always tell you, Oh, it takes a hundred investor meetings to get any interest, but it's the reality is it takes a hundred meetings because it takes so long to actually get to the point where your product and your market fit and all that are, are actually ready for investment.
We're where people will care. And at once, once that flips, it's a lot different and it's easy to get people, but it's. You can beat your head against the wall for a long time without anything happening and you won't have made it. You won't have made any progress by doing that.
Jeremy: [00:40:38] Tell me this, like your first significant or how is it public?
How much you've raised. Can we say how much you've raised?
Jeremy Blalock: [00:40:44] I don't think it's been announced yet.
Jeremy: [00:40:46] Okay. You don't have to say that. So like your first little amount, like, what was that? What was that? What was the little amount?
Jeremy Blalock: [00:40:53] I mean, the very first money that we raised was just me. Luckily, I had a friend who worked.
So it's all the money we've raised has been through introductions as, as most people will probably tell you. But I had a friend I went to school with, who started a fund out in Berkeley that was called the house fund and they started an incubator. And so I got into their incubator and I was, it was just me and an idea and really, no, not much code written, um, not in, not any functional product at that point, but I raised $20,000 and got a little bit, uh, A little bit of support from, you know, AWS and that kind of stuff, but that was, that was easy.
And so I thought that the rest of it would be two and then raising the next, you know, the next money after that took. Over. I think it was, it was about a year after that we raised any more money and probably year and a half before that we had him out. So
Jeremy: [00:41:40] this is, this is the struggle bus I love most.
Yeah. Right. Like, so you started this by yourself, right?
Jeremy Blalock: [00:41:48] Yeah. So I was, I was originally pretty against having co-founders and I just thought, like, why would I give up control? That was initially how I was too. Um, You know, I think, I think it added a lot bringing the cofounders on and just enable us to move a lot faster because there's definitely areas that I was weekend.
Yeah. But, um, I, you know, I was running it by myself for the first year and we got to the point where we had, I think two or three apps launched in the app store during that, during that first year. So it, it was pretty cool to see some of those, but it was just, it was also very slow and. Every time I've worked with a customer, it meant that we weren't ready to code.
Jeremy: [00:42:25] yeah. So you were able to what raise money based on like that somewhat agency model then? So, yeah,
Jeremy Blalock: [00:42:32] when, when I raised, sorry, when we raised the larger amount a year and a half after the first, the first thing, he better check that was all based on the agency model. So it was basically where we, we just said, we're going to try and get, you know, we've already got our first cohort of 10 people and they're going to try and, you know, get a bunch more and.
And raised from there, we always had the vision of, of being a self serve product. So that was kind of seen as a temporary thing, but it enabled us to show some metrics and some progress, you know,
Jeremy: [00:43:01] did it tell me this, like I've given you a bunch of things that I am obviously a contrary contrarian on, right?
Like I have told I don't care what I do. I care what VCs think. If it aligns what I think, if that makes any sense. I won't, I know that I go into a meeting and I'm like, cool. It is. If here's where I'm at, here's what I'm building. Here's where I think it could grow. Here's where the market's growing. If you like that.
Terrific. If you, if the end of the, at the end of the day, you like making money, you want a return on your investment. I'll help you get there. But if you're going to sit here and tell me bullshit about how I need to be a unicorn or die, I don't agree with that. I just completely disagree with that. Right?
Like most of their assets are a hundred million, 50 million. Right. Like they accident probably for PR and I have a lot of those not boring business tendencies. Like I just, I won't sacrifice like who I am. Like when you brought on two cofounders, do you feel like a little bit chipped away? Cause you were like, fuck, I, I wanted to do this by myself.
I was a solo founder. I wanted to do it that way. At what stages or places can you point to that are like, you might have made a decision going. Ah, I kind of feel like I'm not being authentically me or saying something that's me, but it's gotten you farther or it's hurt you.
Jeremy Blalock: [00:44:31] Yeah, I mean, I think that before, so, before I brought them on was, was kind of a difficult time just because I, uh, you know, I was working out by myself for quite a while.
I was living in my apartment, not really, not really doing much outside of just work. Um, And so it was really like we had, we had got, I mean, I, I, at that point it was in a way, but had gotten some significant progress and built a product that was a lot of the basics of what we have now. Um, but I was, I was spending a lot of time interacting with customers and doing things that didn't feel like they were driving the company vision towards success, even if it was even if it was at that point, driving individual customer accounts, you know, I was.
I was doing a lot of customized stuff just to get these very small number of customer accounts to be successful and to be published. Right. And I feel like at that point it was a big internal struggle of, you know, how do I actually get my time back so I can build the real horror platform and actually get this thing to be successful.
Right. Because I knew, I always knew that you had to build certain things before it would be generally applicable, do a lot more people. And so there were, there were a number of decisions. Like we. I was considering adding translation support for internationalization when we only had two customers. And in retrospect, that seems insane because it just, because one of those two customers really needed it.
Right. And I was like, eventually ended up dropping that customer and said, you know, The app you're trying to build is going to cost a hundred thousand dollars to build. And you know, I'm not going to shell out that money to do it. It's not, it's not on me to build all these customized things you need.
Like right now, we, now we actually have most of them. I think we still don't have the internationalization, but we have pretty much everything else in here. Like ACH payments and that kind of stuff. Yeah. But I think, I think you have to listen to what your early customers are saying, but you have to also get enough early customers.
That not a single one can individually like steer you too much.
Jeremy: [00:46:26] Yeah, I agree with that. Right. Like I won't make something unless I too think it's something that I can sell multiple times or it's something we can add to the builder or whatever, but like, unless I hear it 10 to 12 times. Yeah. Like, I won't like, I'll go alright.
Once or twice. So like it becomes this group think or herd, like philosophy around building a new module or building a new feature set like within the builder.
Jeremy Blalock: [00:46:52] Yeah. I mean, I, I kind of also wished that I just did some sort of launch earlier. I mean, I know that the product wasn't polished, I know that it wasn't perfect or nearly as good as it is now, but I feel like getting that early feedback would have been, would have been good because.
Now a lot of what people are doing, doesn't really require things that we didn't have then it's just, it's just that we didn't get the necessary, like kind of lift off until later on. And I think that the whole no-code movement has helped out a ton. So I can't really, it's hard to say what would have happened at that point.
I thought that wasn't really a thing yet, but it's, I think you have to get out there and had a. Get real serious numbers, because if you have 10 people using it, they might all not like it just cause they're not the right 10, but if you have a couple hundred or a thousand and it's a lot easier to actually see those things.
Jeremy: [00:47:39] Yeah, absolutely. I agree. Okay. I want to get two takes. Well, actually three little things left and then you can leave. Right. So, all right. So the first thing is when you're, you're a new company, you're one of the new no-code players. Like, uh, I think from my re well, I guess glide might be
Jeremy Blalock: [00:47:59] newer right there.
They're about the same age, but they launched, they launched, I think officially a few months before us, they were founded around the same time.
Jeremy: [00:48:07] Yeah. Like last fall ish or something summer fall.
Jeremy Blalock: [00:48:09] Yeah.
Jeremy: [00:48:09] Yeah. Um, and I just, I just, I don't know about them. I can't get behind turning a Google sheet into a. Like I like that story or that message.
Yeah. Like, I feel like it's, I don't know, but like the founders I know sold like a company to Microsoft for like half a billion dollars or something. Right. So like, obviously they're going to find investment in marketing and everything else. Um, I just don't have that pedigree, uh, which always leads to a chip on my shoulder.
Jeremy Blalock: [00:48:38] just will be the one, but
Jeremy: [00:48:40] yeah. Right. This'll be your win. Um, especially after being on the not boring business podcast. Uh, so. How do you look at marketing? Right? Like how do you look at spending your marketing dollars? Like if I was an investor and I say, cool, I'm going to give you a million dollars and you go, all right, well, we need to spend half a million on product and hiring a couple of people and building the product out.
And here's where we want to market. Are you a Facebook ads guy? Are you an Instagram ads guy? What's an outside of the box take on like where you would Mark it or how you would build that community side of what you're
Jeremy Blalock: [00:49:14] doing. I mean, so we're, we're definitely doing some of that because I think everybody is doing it a little bit.
Um, but we don't really see the majority of our growth coming from Facebook ads, even though it probably the majority of our spend is currently on split between ads and the various, some of the, some of the like paid partnerships with no hood communities as well. Um, but the majority of our users really just come from word of mouth and referrals from other people are using the platform and kind of organic sources like that.
So. We've really kind of tried to put as much effort as we can into building our communities, both on slide, head on the forum and, you know, really building a big Twitter following and that kind of thing, which is, which has helped a lot and made kind of multiplied everything else we do, because that means we don't have to spend as much on ads.
We can, we can kind of get higher quality customers, even from just those existing customers tweeting about things or posting it to their network.
Jeremy: [00:50:09] Hi, have you done like Twitter ads at all?
Jeremy Blalock: [00:50:11] Like, yeah, we did do a little bit of that, which is funny because the, the guy who was consulting with us initially, it was like, you know, you don't want to do Twitter ads.
Twitter ads are never any good. They have super high conversion prices compared to other ads because they don't actually have a, they don't actually have like a conversions based, um, metric. So you can only do pay-per-click today, but it was funny because they actually converted at a much higher rate than, than any of the others.
Jeremy: [00:50:36] Oh, interesting. See,
Jeremy Blalock: [00:50:37] because we already had that audience. We already had a lot of people on Twitter, so we had a good base.
Jeremy: [00:50:42] How many followers?
Jeremy Blalock: [00:50:43] Um, I think at that point we had all annually a thousand or so, but now we have several thousand,
Jeremy: [00:50:48] like I have dude, honestly, I would abandoned. This is just me. I would abandon like all social, like just, I have no following yet, like a shit ton of revenue.
Right? Like it's, it's so weird. You either. It's you're either gonna deploy cash to something that's ridiculous, like Twitter. And you're like, cool. So we grew 5% and we spent $50,000 on Twitter and Instagram. Right. And you're like, is that really worth it? Or you start thinking outside of the box. I like what you were talking about with like, um, uh, referrals.
Have you tried incentivized referrals yet? Like a double side referral or anything.
Jeremy Blalock: [00:51:27] So we've, we've done that a little bit with influencers. So like influencer marketing is something we kind of jumped on early and influence people. Don't think of influencer marketing in our space at all, but there are a lot of these like agency types who build a lot of things to know hood tools and, you know, with code, but we've given a lot of them discount codes.
And so that kind of thing helps a lot. Um,
Jeremy: [00:51:49] have you gone straight out pay them?
Jeremy Blalock: [00:51:51] Yeah. So we, we give them codes that basically when you sign up through their link, it's like a affiliate basically.
Jeremy: [00:51:58] Oh, so you haven't like paid, paid them and affiliate paid them.
Jeremy Blalock: [00:52:02] Um, we, we have, so some of the, some of the no code tutorial sites we've paid for, you know, making tutorials and I had to stop, but we haven't, we, I think, try to separate the ones that are affiliate versus paid.
Jeremy: [00:52:14] Yeah. Sure. Okay. Okay. Got you. Yeah, that makes sense. Okay. Third and final investor question. Yep. If I'm an investor coming at you, uh, and I secret host podcast host, I like this move investor hat on here, Jeremy. Oh, it's so funny to say Jeremy on my own podcast. Um, San Francisco to st. Louis, what the fuck?
Jeremy Blalock: [00:52:37] Yeah, I mean, I, I went from paying, I think it was 30,000 a month for. A one bedroom and, or it was 2,900 a month in San Francisco to a eight 25 in st. Louis for a one bedroom. And my place has twice as tall of ceilings and it looks a lot nicer. So there's that. And I mean, I think that the three of us go founders can't afford to live on the same salary that one person could afford to live in San Francisco.
It's insane. The difference. Um, I think that like when, when you said, yeah, you have 11 people, that's, that's pretty different LA and the Bay area in New York versus somewhere in the Midwest. Um, just because of the fact that everything else trickles down and it's all a lot, a lot more affordable if you're basing a different market.
I think that we couldn't have really timed it better based on this whole coronavirus thing, because now it doesn't really seem to matter as much where you're based, but, uh, I've really, I really hadn't enjoyed being out of the Bay area. And I think that when I was there, I didn't really. Being supposedly an insider.
You know, I went to UC Berkeley. I went, I lived in San Francisco for five years. I should have had ins in every network, but being an engineer and not really being kind of in the elite in San Francisco. Sure. You don't really get a lot of the benefits that people talk about. And also, I think it's harder to stand out as one of the kind of Darlene companies that everybody really cares about because there are so many companies overall.
Whereas if you're in a different market, Where there's only a hundred startups in the whole metropolitan area, then it's a lot easier to be the top one. Right,
Jeremy: [00:54:08] dude. Yeah. That's, that's a great point. Is there, is there, but why st. Louis?
Jeremy Blalock: [00:54:14] Yeah, so, I mean, obviously my cofounders were already here, so that was always a big draw.
But, um, in addition, you know, we found. There was a pretty good set of universities here. Wash U is one of the top ranked business schools as a really good computer science program. Yeah. Um, as well as some of the other schools around here, and then also the, our strands program provides a $50,000 non-dilutive grant, which, you know, helps definitely hire a couple of people.
So that was a big draw as well.
Jeremy: [00:54:39] Absolutely dude. That's cool. Like, and I am, again, if it's not your dude, I'd use a dollar.
Jeremy Blalock: [00:54:46] Well also like
Jeremy: [00:54:48] all, all our other contemporaries and, and, uh, corollaries and competition can suck it. Like, but Jeremy to Jeremy, founder, to founder, you have a great product.
Jeremy Blalock: [00:55:01] Well, when I checked out some of your example, apps, those look pretty good too, so,
Jeremy: [00:55:04] Oh man.
Thanks dude. Like, Oh, I appreciate that. Um, thank you so much for coming on. What do you want to hoc? What do you want to where you were working? People find you.
Jeremy Blalock: [00:55:16] I mean, our Twitter is definitely the biggest spot or just sign up for an account and play around with the tool.
Jeremy: [00:55:21] Okay. And that's a doll, a D a L o.com,
Jeremy Blalock: [00:55:25] correct?
Correct. Yeah. You got it.
Jeremy: [00:55:26] I even second endorse them. So I, and I'm a no-code guy, right? So like try them both. They're both. They're both. Terrific. Uh, thank you so much, Jeremy. You are a terrific individual.
Jeremy Blalock: [00:55:41] You too. Thanks for the interview.