Interview with Nigel Godfrey

Nigel Godfrey

Jeremy: Okay. Cool. So Nigel Godfried. Hello. How are you? Hello? Hello? 

Nigel Godfrey: Good, 

Jeremy: good. 

Perfect. Uh, we were discussing accents and well-known cities and both the Americas and all Birmingham, Birmingham, Birmingham. 

Nigel Godfrey: Yeah. We'll yeah, 

we'll get into Birmingham, Alabama versus 

yeah. Yeah. 

Jeremy: Yeah. I'm trying to think the other one.

What's the other big school, the real big school there. That's not Oxford. Right? Bridge Cambridge, Cambridge, small, 

Nigel Godfrey: cute Manchester. Uh, 

Jeremy: Oh yeah. Okay. Okay. Okay. Yeah, I'm trying to think. I know, I think I know a buddy of mine went to Bristol. Yeah. So I know Bristol, um, I know they're one of the cities for some reason would like reminded me of the, the, the candied egg company.

I forgot what it is. Um, is it Canterbury? 

Nigel Godfrey: Yeah. So can't you make the cathedral entropy. So that was one of the big, you know, the big kind of, uh, the big, um, Yeah, that'd be massive neutral. It's really, it is really oppressive. It is. It's, uh, it's kind of nice. It's nice little town in the middle. There's just this gigantic gigantic cathedral.

So for me, I was gonna say, well, w what? I went to Boston, we, we, I, I, I had a car and, um, I was, I was there a couple of days ahead of the people that were, uh, were coming out. So hydrocarbon, I went in sort of slightly a lab. There was like, it was kind of new. England is weird for somebody from. England. And particularly around that, it was because, uh, Suffolk, which is kind of to the East of London, um, sort of flat, um, all the places I was driving, there had names of places I knew I had.

It was just really, let's kind of spill this real disconnect with like, ah, that's not over there. So I recognize most of the things on the side pump, other sides and driving kind of Western West, Western Boston. Um, thinking that, uh, well, I should know where I'm going, but they're not in the right place.

Jeremy: Yeah. That is funny. Yeah. Like I am so how, and this is one thing or like I love cause part of me cares and part of me doesn't care. Um, the segue into the beautiful talk into like the regular substance. So what, how do we segue accents and, Oh, that was a bad one. How do we segue accents and city names? And to what you do with no code.

How do we bridge that? 

Nigel Godfrey: Well, we can, we can, uh, we can, we can talk about, um, we can talk about sort of new England, Yale. Uh, there we go. And, um, yeah, with, um, We were doing [00:03:00] as, as, as part of the, um, sort of bootcamp what's, uh, uh, Yale university. I'm doing an hour on API APIs in, in a couple of weeks time. So that's going to be really, uh, that's going to be really interesting is how to, uh, you know, an hour, an hour to fill as much as possible about what an API is.

So that's one of my, uh, my particular, my particular interests is, is, is, is grubbing around in APIs. 

Jeremy: So, uh, tell us more about that course then and like, um, well I guess before, how did you get started with no code? Because, um, I do on your Twitter, I think it was, um, you have no code boss. Yeah. And I have no code CEO, obviously.

So like, do you have, do you, you have no code, which I love Nigel. Um, tell us about no code boss first. 

Nigel Godfrey: No is quite new. So NoCodeBoss, was I in? Okay. Boss is the offspring of a website called building on bubble, which was, which, which was started many years ago with just like how to do little things.

Um, and it it's it's, um, it is a testimony to how bad my design is. Um, so a big shout out to anybody listening, but it's also kind of designed as there's a little kind of, there's a little crew of us on, uh, on, on Twitter and we're all like, yeah. We suck. Like it's like, we, we suck at this. It's like so bad.

Why, why can't I make things look beautiful? Um, but it is, it is it, it does look. So it was just lots of little kind of patterns. And you do things you hadn't could make a countdown. Um, I've just got a little tricks and tips that I built up and hadn't really done anything with. Um, until I, until I, I was looking in a, in a, in a dusty corner of my Google analytics and I realized how much traffic I had to the site that I didn't really pay any attention to.

Um, I know that, you know, you should try and capture people with email, which I did, [00:05:00] none of that. I think that'd be, could even get in contact with sure. We was getting, I was getting like tens and tens of thousands of, uh, of, you know, like people were on there for, for minutes, five, 10 minutes. Um, I thought.

Oh, that's interesting. So Nokia bosses, that is the kind of the modern variant of that. Uh, just real bite sized chunks of how to do some of the more complicated things. Other people are. Other people are good at doing, you know, hours of tutorials and have a lot of patients. My, uh, I'm, I'm a bit more about the, uh, right.

What can I, what can I cram into five minutes? 

Jeremy: Yeah, I think that's good. I can't, cause I believe that most people, especially in no-code they struck dude, if I, if you told me. That I had to sit there and watch a three hour video, or I actually, you know, there's this thing about no-code build in public, which I think is great, but I think it's great in bite sized chunks.

Right? So like, I don't believe I'm going to watch someone sit there and build something for three or four. I'm not, no one's going to dude. You know how stupid some of that sounds, I'm going to sit there and watch someone else build their thing. It's like the people are, are, are gravitating toward that instead of building their own thing.

And I understand the how to, but the how tos should be bite chunks, bite size chunks. Right. I'm going to do this, then I'm going to try it. I'm going to do that. Then I'm going to try it. I'm going to do that. And I'm gonna try, I'm gonna do it in real life. So like how, how do you, how do you bridge that gap, right?

Like for yourself, like what would you tell the other no-code CEO hours or the no code CEO hours, just CEOs or the, or, you know, not boring nation. What would you tell them to like. It's cool to watch someone build in public, but like, come on, like, you're not going to spend three hours watching someone do something, right.

Like it's not a good use of time. What are your thoughts on that? 

Nigel Godfrey: There's there's, there's a there's um, there's somebody with a, with a, with a Twitch feed stream thing. Uh, I, I, I sound like my, my, my 13 year old son would those all around Twitch, uh, and, and, and spends his time, like either watching Minecraft, playing Minecraft or watching other people play Minecraft or whatever.

Uh, but there's somebody who, who, who does, um, who does kind of notating or on Twitter, you've just got channels open. And, uh, I was thinking on one hand, I thought. I, I re I really like, kind of really liked the idea of that kind of, um, What's going to office hours or something where you can have where, so people can just kind of drop in and go, uh, Oh, I'm really struggling with this.

Um, and yeah, there would maybe be somebody there, but, but I think sort of watching, watching somebody move things around is, I don't know, it's very popular or was very popular in the, kind of the extreme programming agile kind of do pair programming when you sit there and do things. But I really. And I've done it with, I've done it with bubble.

I've got with this, uh, group of people I worked with, uh, you know, in Detroit, uh, building a really cool bubble app and, uh, in Detroit. Yeah. Well that's the kind of outside Troy. 

Jeremy: Oh, I lived in Troy. Oh, what? Nigel has been. Oh, Nati Nati. I was that, yeah, I 

Nigel Godfrey: think that's that. Troy

There Detroit let's for quite a long time. I, I was talking to them and I kind of thought that they were on the East coast rather than kind of in the middle. So my, my geography got up. I'm like, Oh yeah, it was kind of like, yeah, it wouldn't snow. We're not anywhere near that kind of an ice cage. Um, so yeah, it's kind of less, uh, less cramps.


Jeremy: funny because like, uh, you know, Michigan where I'm from, like Detroit area, um, it's Eastern time zone though. So it's like, it's the same time zone as New York or Boston or anywhere on the East coast is just like Midwest. Yeah. So like, yeah. That's funny. So what did you do with them?

Nigel Godfrey: Yes. So there's, um, there's, uh, they they're, uh, split slightly, so they aren't going to, um, uh, sort of rentals rentals company that doing a very different, uh, a different take to kind of Airbnb. It's a, it's a big, it's really big bill, but they are, they're really, they're really kind of. They're really going places.

Um, but we, we do some, um, we do some kind of pair programming, um, or pair bubbling. Uh, I find it, I find it quite difficult. I find it quite different kind of it either somebody else watch me struggle watching somebody else and you know, you know, you know what it's like, it's not, if you type stuff, you're going to look at it, clickety, clickety, and you think, Oh, that's quite good.

You might, you might make a mistake. Or, or to moving something round kind of just that with a pixel precision to, uh, to get something inside something else. And then he just, that is that's painful. 

Jeremy: Yeah. It, it, it is like, fuck, I can't get, you know, when you're [00:10:00] actually going through something and you're like, God damn, you know, like, I think there's a rawness and a cool authenticity to it, but like, and there's an interesting part of it, but it's like, do I sit there for hours and hours watching someone for like the one or two interesting parts?

Or do you chop it up and show people the interesting parts, you know, That's kind of how I think about it. It's like, there's a better way to digest the content around no-code in my eyes. I 

Nigel Godfrey: do like, I do like watching people do stuff. I like, I like looking at the way they've done things and there's so many kind of different, um, Oh, I didn't.

Oh, that's interesting. There's that initial? Well, that's not how I do it. What have they done? And then it's like, Oh, okay. Um, yes, you saw somebody was. On somebody the other day, I don't know what, what group it was. There's so many, there's so many  things around now. I can't remember where it, whether it was Twitter or Facebook or, or whatever is Facebook.

It was the Facebook bubble group. Um, and uh, I said, well, you just get kind of [00:11:00] somebody asks the question and I said, do it this way and said, well, you could just, you could just round down to it round down to month on that. You can do that. It's it's yeah. It's um, yeah, I think just kind of immersing in how other people do things.

Jeremy: Yeah, sure. Like that, just that IMR. Yeah. I understand that. Um, but not for 

Nigel Godfrey: three hours. 

Jeremy: Yeah. Right? Yeah. Not productive worth of time. Right. Anyone that should be built, just build and make mistakes and then ask questions. That's my thing. Um, so you mentioned like the crowded space in no-code, right? Like, and, and it's, it's funny that you see a lot of people building a no-code charging and no code.

There's a lot of talk about no code. Um, I still don't think it's reaching. Uh, the, the, the 96, there's a stat out there at 96% of people do not know how to navigate a CMS. Right. So, like, how do you think one, how do you think someone stands out in no-code? Right? Like how do you think someone [00:12:00] elevates themselves and like on a note with a no-code platform, um, and tending to, how do you think those platforms get to the lower, uh, people that real 96% non-technical start from nothing.

No. That's 

Nigel Godfrey: good. Good, good, good questions. Um, so one, I think now I think you have to, I think you have to specialize, I think you have to know your know, your know, your know your niche. Uh, now it's, it's, it's, it's hard. There's so much stuff coming now. It would be, it's just hard to get across all of the kind of new things.

Um, so you'd like the other day, why code came out and I had a bit of a look at map, but it's impressive. I there's, there was, there was, there was some things there was more than I expected, so I think they kind of think they've done more than I expected. So there's some of the, um, uh, Some of the stuff that is like, woah, that's nice.

They've got, uh, they've got some things where they didn't necessarily say there was going to be in that. Uh, I couldn't quite some things I thought, Oh, I wonder where that is. But, uh, straight up, frustrate out the box. I was, I was, I was very impressed and I think we should be now. I think that's the, I think that's the difficulty now for.

You know, if you're launching in, if you are launching anything, no code in 2021, it's got to be good. It's got to come out and you've got to come out of the box fast because if you sort of, well, it's a bit, yeah, it's a bit rough around the edges or this doesn't work or that I think you've just got to be everything's so good now.

It's it's yeah. 

Jeremy: Yeah. I think that, I think that's, that's brilliant with what you're saying. I think that. That's like, um, with the V1 platform, when we launched, I don't know, we product hunt launch in LA just last November. Um, and I would have said our focus was, uh, anyone who wants a mobile app. Right. But it's like, no, that's not what I like.

Right. So like, and that's not who our customers are. Our customers are people who want to build the first version of their mobile app. Right. So it's like the easiest to use. And the people that are like pissed off with us are the people who want it to do what it doesn't do. Right. Which is nonsense, nonsense.

Right. So like really getting out of the starting blocks is like what I want to go toward. So like truly the 96%, like there's a huge learning curve on bubble. They're like why code looks very similar to web flow? Web flow has a huge learning curve as well. So you're like, dude, I was intimidated by web and web flows easier than bubble.

So you're like, God, all the great no-code tools, like take a lot of time, where do you start? Right. So like everyone, there's this like mimicry going on in no-code [00:15:00] where everyone is kind of trying to be bubble. Like everyone's like, cool. We want to be the best. I'm like, I want to be. And it's talks to your niche.

I want to be the best starting point, right? Like the best, no code entry point. Um, how do you think we hammer that? Or if a platform was like, cool, entry-level no coders, this is your platform you start with. And then, uh, how do you think I would go about hammering that value prop home with our platform. If I can get your advice.

Nigel Godfrey: Yeah, I think, I think that that, that, that works. And I think there's, there is a, you know, I love it. I've been very vocal about, uh, softer. Um, just, I just, you know, as somebody who is, who is, um, uh, design. Focus challenged. Um, and, and, and kind of like being able to produce something that looks really good. I mean, card is a, is another one.

Yeah. But use a card site and while it just looks amazing, I'm like, do you know what it wasn't me? It was the clever people. That's the thing. Yeah. It's just the, the, the, the stuff that I used to, um, The stuff that I used to churn out and, um, in sort of 2015, I got some, I was, I was looking back at some apps I've done there and it's like, what, what was I, you know, what was I thinking?

Um, I don't think the boss, yeah. The boss got up for, I think the bar has gone up for, um, for people who are making stuff as well. And I think that's what they, what you need now is, you know, you, you, can't just kind of. It's it's it's if you know your audience absolutely. And you know, what their problems are, um, then people will forgive.

People will forgive. If you give them value, they will forgive them. Don, Norman's think about, if you give you some value off, we'll give you the, uh, I'll forgive you that, that the sort of lack of, uh, lack of perfect design. But if you're not giving people, it could even be a good exactly what they want.

Yeah. So I think, I think absolutely. I think something that you can just quickly get out of the starting blocks get, get done. I really like, um, building something in a platform that makes me make decisions about what the most important thing is. I can't do that. Right. Um, is there something that I'm going to 

Jeremy: try it again?

What do you mean by that? 

Nigel Godfrey: Yeah, well, okay. So, um, but I want to put it, you know, I want to put, I want to put a two column list on a page and it doesn't quite look how I want it to look. Am I okay with that? Yeah, of course. I'm going to be okay with that. Now. People are people. Know if I can't, uh, yeah. The breaking things and I think, Oh, like, you know, geocoding, for example, um, for geolocation.

So if your app doesn't know where it is on your listings, I think, you know, you've probably got a bit of a problem. Sure. But if, you know, if, if your column doesn't look, if your two column list, isn't quite what you want said, or, uh, and you don't have too much variation, do you know what. Just, just go with it and you come back to it kind of, uh, a month or so later we built a glide app, um, for our kids listing a couple of them, uh, back in October and it looks really nice and it doesn't do exactly what we want it to do, but I go back to it.

I'm still like, yeah. This is good. I use it for, um, I'm using it, uh, or we're using it to build, um, a bubble version, uh, because we need to build some stuff out there blind doesn't do, but just being able to go to something that works. I think it's great. It's like I've got open on one page and it's like, just rebuild that.

And I think just rebuilding it several times. I think there's a. There's a phrase about, you know, Billy wants to throw away, but I think if you kind of build the cost to do that with bubble lapses and just build something really quickly for everything on there and then throw it away and then kind of go right.

Okay. This is my second, my second attempt. 

Jeremy: Yeah. That's the, and that's, that's, what's funny. Cause we've been talking with bubble, um, and we're going to make this and Q2, uh, where you can start in our platform and published to bubble. So you don't. Yeah. You don't have to start over. Right. It's like, um, so we've been talking with a manual and the button, the team had bubble, so it's okay for Q2 Q3 of this year.

Um, probably end the Q2 early Q3 where we build this out and you can start on our platform very easily. And then you can just boop, export to bubble when you're ready for more complex stuff. So you're like, great. You can get to. 73% of your app in here. Even if you're a developer, that's like, dude, you can download your, your source code and just peace.

Um, and like being able to publish, like always knowing that we're the starting point, but we encourage you to get off our platform if you want. So like, and one thing, one, one, uh, trend that I'm seeing a no-code is a lot of people just try different platforms. Right. Like they want to, we've been very cognizant.

We don't even have a freemium model right now. So like, that's kind of pissing some people off and I'm like getting people inside that are the right audience is great. Not tire kickers that don't tell you anything. Right. So like I'm making sure some people have skin in the game. That's my bothersome trend.

What trend do you see in no code that you maybe don't like, or don't love enough? 

Nigel Godfrey: Whoa. That's what, what, what, what Dame say that I, I have, uh, I have a bit of a problem with the cloning side of things, and I think, I think we do ourselves. I think we do ourselves a disservice. I ate. It is absolutely. Can, you know, I know somebody, um, it was ad Dave who flowed, uh, kind of close Twitter, um, uh, quite a few years ago and I actually worked it.

Wasn't just a skin and I created a, uh, I've got, uh, uh, if you're listening, um, Facebook lives, I just thought, you know, what. Well, not since it wasn't me or something else. So I did, uh, I did not really the Facebook and like, it was good. We went back to the first iteration of Facebook with a sort of pixelated, uh, Al Pachino at the top.

Um, and it was great cause it, it wasn't responsive, so I didn't have to build it responsive. So I built that and I got to, you know, I got, I got some, uh, like I, my, my, uh, my, my. Domain provider wrote to me and said, Facebook have been on there. They want you to stop. So, yeah, that was taken down now. So, uh, I'll, I'll, I'll resurrect in, in, in, in sometime in the future.

Yes. The economy I built, I built Airbnb in a, in a, in a way weekend or I, you know, I did this in as an exercise. I think it is really, really good because you can look at something and go, and this is what I, they. Wait, where was, where was Mark Zuckerberg or it was what, what what's um, what university was he at for whatever one he was at and they, they managed to keep the code.

So they've got like a kind of working version of it, um, on one of their servers of the really early version. Um, so I could just go in and I could go in and work out how things worked and I think that's great when you're, when you're, when you're trying to do the UI. Um, but I think we sell ourselves. I think we sell ourselves poorly when we say, well, you, you can rebuild Airbnb and Airbnb.

Isn't just a, it's not just a front end. There's a whole stuff at the back. How this works. Yeah. Time zones are, what if you're here and what if you're there? And that's where the that's kind of where the hard bit is. And that's the best. Yeah. Obviously that's the bit that interests me is like, how do you do the really hard things?

Um, that you, that you would, if you really were going to be a build Airbnb. 

Jeremy: Yeah. That's a good point because like, at some point I do believe no code has its challenges, right? Like at some point you're not you while not, you're not going to be a $100 million a year company on. J a tech company on hardcore tech in no-code.

Right. So like, I think I really do believe that you can have an Airbnb, but everything has its limitations, right? Like there's a reason why Airbnb probably has hundreds or if not, I don't know how many people they've got, but like hundreds of engineers. Right. So like, and on the front end, it looks simple.

And on the backend, it's just transacts. Right. So it's like, and there's a reason why people get to the hundred million dollar a year level. And that's normally either tech-related or not, but, um, or hidden tech, like Airbnb now does their own processing and everything else, all the other things that you need to build it build as you grow, what limitations do you see in no code?

Right. Like I see easily getting to 10 million, right. Or having a side hustle or a real business. Right. Like. I myself have built three, six figure no-code companies. So like, I love it. I love building the business around no-code. Um, where do you see the limitations in no-code right now?

Nigel Godfrey: I think we're fine on storage. I think, you know that there is so much, yeah, there's so much as the district, is it, was it, um, yeah, Google, Google cloud, but I've made another loss, but there's still, you know, storage is just so cheap. Um, and you know, you've got Firebase, which is amazing. Uh, Google big query is here, but you can put just a ton of stuff in there.

So you, I, I think using, I think. And it's able, you know, it's table. I love it. It's able and, and, and, and it's just kind of, it does so many things, but there's just a hard stop on something like air table and our internal databases, like bubble and things like that. At some point you kind of need to, you need to.

Go beyond to have a proper front end back end. I think so. I think rather than, well, I think the problems are, I think the solution to many problems will be that split between the front end back end. You know, we've seen endless Zeno, which is, you know, which is, which is coming along, um, and putting your kind of big, big, chunky business logic.

Into a backend that doesn't change very much. If you look at a couple, what happens in yeah. When you talk about Amazon or any of these ones, you know, just being moved, moving fast and breaking things and doing stuff, but that's only the front end, you know, they had to invent and to invent their own massive tax to do stuff on the backend.

I'll bet you that doesn't change every two seconds. Yeah. That will be sure. That's that just stays there and, you know, nobody touches it. And, uh, if you, you, you [00:26:00] maybe, maybe you make a change once every, every so often. But I think there's that I think that they will be, uh, I think there will be a, uh, whether it'll be a platform that does it, or whether it be two platforms come together, um, that sort of split between big, complicated, hairy stuff in the back end that won't change that often.

Uh, I'm the sort of front end, uh, hooking into all of the, kind of the API APIs and everything on to onto that, which, um, know which is, which would be, and then you, yeah. Then you can just iterate that your heart's content and you can just iterate and iterate and iterate, um, with something, with something chunky at the back end.

It's when they're merged together. I think that's the, it's the separation of. That was a long way of saying, I think it's the separation of concerns. I think it's there, the things that don't change, which is, you know, it's, my data looks like this, my business is like this. Um, but I want it, I want to present things in different ways.

Jeremy: Yeah. I liked that. Like, and I think, I think that's a great piece to like, uh, like evolve from, or start with and then evolve to. So, um, so lastly, One thing I want to get is like at least a piece of advice for the no-code community out there. Um, doesn't have to be so outside of the box, but as you can maybe tell I'm outside of the box and I'll always be that weird pucker.

So like, uh, for the no-code community and the no-code CEOs out there, what would be one of your best tips to start? No code build no code monetize, no code.

Nigel Godfrey: It's tips. You're after 

Jeremy: pro tip, you got a pro tip. 

Nigel Godfrey: I got a pro tip. I got a product. My pro se uh, my pro tip would be, I think going back to my, my, they just build the, build the first one to throw away. 

Jeremy: Oh, that's 

Nigel Godfrey: brilliant.  that's my I've kind of grown. I've kind of grown into that. Um, as a way of doing things of, of, of, I that's what I was doing, what I've been doing over the last couple of days is a, an initial stab at a, at a, at a, uh, A customer, a customer app that I'm building.

And I've just been to two screens. I've just been copying workflows that kind of worked from one over into the other and tidying up onto it onto a nicer front end. It got me, it gets me to thinking, okay, I know what I want to do. And I know this is may have, I have regular arguments with them. Uh, disagreements with people on Twitter about whether you should just sort of how, how soon you should start bending hand.

I think there's a small as a small, as a small concern. I think I completely get that. You need to talk, talk to your audience and, and, you know, and, and, and, uh, community building is, is, is vital, but actually just the background, just kind of build something for yourself and go, does this feel, is this what I, is this what I wanted to do?

Um, sure. The second time round is so much quicker and that's for, for, for, for me, I can make things. Look, I can make things look so much better the second time round, because I'm not fiddling around. So my, my project is built bill one, throwaway. 

Jeremy: I love that. I love that. Uh, and then lastly, you can find him ladies and gents at Nigel Godfrey on Twitter.

And I noticed, dude, you have a pinned tweet. From 2015 with the hashtag no code. That's fucking amazing. 

Nigel Godfrey: Back in those days. No code, no code was an album by a petal jam. So hashtag just be like, hello, is there anybody here that is amazing, you know, Pell jam, amazing band. And I saw the sort of

Jeremy: what I call the fame, to be honest. Like, I bet you have just like, I don't think anything, anyone has done what I've done in no-code dude. You don't see that often. You see people jumping on it now. Hugely, hugely that a word. I don't know. Um, a big light, particularly in 2019, maybe, but like 20, 19, 2020, where the two huge years for no-code right?

Like. And 2021 will be really big as well, but like to, to stay claim back in December 20, 15 to a no-code that's impressive. So where else can people find you? If not Twitter? 

Nigel Godfrey: Uh, so I'm I, because I'm because I'm a, uh, older gentleman, most of my, uh, most, pretty much anything is I will be, I will be Nigel Godfrey.

So, uh, and, and what particular, when I talk to the younger people [00:31:00] who are like, so, you know, what's your, what's your Twitter handle of it? How'd you got free. What's your, what's your email address? Nigel dot Godfrey. Uh, which, which I, I didn't realize it was actually quite a. Uh, it was, it was, um, was this rat, uh, so yeah, so I'm, I'm on, I'm on, I'm on Twitter.

Uh, you will find me on, you'll find me a lot of the time on the bubble forum as an IgG. So if you, uh, check in there and if you can, if you tag me and I will, then I will try to help as much as possible. 

Jeremy: Well, I just followed you on Twitter and I look forward to having you back and we can talk more. 

Nigel Godfrey: I would, I would, I would, I would love that this has been a good conversation, 

Jeremy: Nigel.

You're the best I'm going to come visit you across the pond. Uh, I'm 

Nigel Godfrey: probably first I need to, I need to come to work. I've got to, I've got a big West coast tour, so I'll come and I'll come and I'll come see it. 

Jeremy: Okay, perfect. I'm looking forward to it. Thanks Nigel. 

Nigel Godfrey: Yeah. As it was a pleasure and a privilege.

Thank you very much. So I will 

Jeremy: hold on. 

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