Interview with Nikhil Vilham

Nikhil Vilham

Jeremy: Okay. Nikhil Hey, that is how you print it as a keel, right? 

Yeah, yeah. Yep. 

Okay, cool. Um, how are you, man? Thanks 

Nikhil Vil: for coming on.

 I'm doing great. Having an awesome Friday. How about yourself? 

Jeremy: I wondering about my Friday. Like it, I think, I think it's, I think it's weird. Like you get this blend of, if you love what you do, there is no Friday feeling.

Cause there is no like Monday feeling

 that's true. 


 It's true.

 You know what I mean? It's cool. I think it like goes in like it transitions. It goes in stages where you're you finding out you're doing what you love. And then you're like, dammit, no one will write me back on the weekends. So I can't wait until Friday.

Okay. Wait until Monday. Right then Monday comes and then dude, I'm telling you for at least the last 12 months or so, uh, yesterday I really did think it was Friday all day. I was like, I had to snap myself out of it. Oh, it's not. It's not Friday. It's Thursday 

completely around there, man. Yeah. 

So like they just, all days are the same day.

I feel like it's like a baseball player in the MLB, like that their schedules mean nothing. It's like, they have no idea if there is a game on Sunday or Monday or cause they get random days off, but they play five or six days a week, you know? So it's like, that's kind of how I feel. So that's like my Friday, I understand it's a weekend, but I almost regret.

Going into it. It's like, Oh great. No, one's going to fucking respond to my emails tomorrow. 

Nikhil Vil: I told him it's always a bummer too. You know, I was going to say quickly, like shot up to the like indie and bootstrap community out there though. Cause they, they work on weekends. I can talk to those, those community weekends, but outside of that, you're not really getting anybody 

Jeremy: else.

I agree. So I think like for me, well it is funny because as we're building , we're like. It sucks because as you're building the SAS company, you're like, cool, we got support. And those support people want to work nine to six or nine to seven. Right. But the fucking hustlers and the side hustle, they, they worked from seven to nine.

Right. Right. So you're like goddammit, right? Like, yeah. It's like, cause they're not building why they're at work, building their side house or whether at work, you know? So it's like, yeah, Yeah. That's, what's, that's, what's funny. And that's, what's really difficult about building or just one thing that's like really difficult about building what we're doing, you know?

So like building the tool that helps people build their tools, you know? 

Nikhil Vil: Yeah.

 Yeah. Hey, we need more of those. I'm not going to lie. I mean, the big, I think big companies, big tech companies could do a lot better at that, but you know, there's, there's so many priorities on their plates. Right. Um, you know, there's that classic question.

Uh, with, uh, you know, with VCs, right? Like how are you different from, um, th the big companies doing it, and you actually can show them pretty easily over time, right? Is that you have this hyper specialization access to understanding of communities at a much deeper level. And, you know, these, these big companies can try, but like, I mean, it's, it's harder for them to justify, you know, trying to figure out like why people are, you know, working that late and how to adapt to that.

Right? Like they, they kind of have their own schedule that they've been building for, you know, 20 plus years. Right. Like they, they don't have time to. Truly commit, you know, to the way that things are going until now. I mean, I think the pandemic serve them into an interesting way for it. So I won't, I won't go on a tangent about that, but I was going to say, you know, shout out to particularly what you, what you're doing right with B one, like, you know, whatever, whatever you're doing to adapt.

You're you're already a head of like, you know, you're you're ahead of the curve on what I think a lot of companies are trying to do at a much higher level, but just don't get it. Cause they're not close enough to the, you know, they're not willing to go deep 

Jeremy: in the sun. Yeah. They're not getting 

Nikhil Vil: wings.

Yeah. They can't, they can't, they have way bigger investors in IPO's to worry or not. I may not be able to just in general, like stakeholders, sorry about, so, [00:04:00] you know, 

Jeremy: where do you, I think that's a great place to start though, which is like, I'm like, uh, I'm reaching this point where I'm like, dude, the only thing you can say, one thing it's gonna piss off.

Half the people anyway, or you can do one thing and half the people are going to hate you, or you could literally play something completely, right. 50% of the work. So you only have to cater to the other 50 to half of the people that will like you. Yeah. So it's like, and I was, I was doing like an investor pitch the other day or whatever, and I gave it my way and this is fucking, this is the hundred and 80th time I've given it.

Right. So I think it's great. And, and I finally stopped and I actually got in an argument with the investor who I was the investor group that I was giving it to, like, because he goes, you're doing this for us. And I literally go, no, I'm not. I'm doing this for me. Yeah. So it's like, I go, we're making it, we're hitting here.

We're hitting our  numbers. We're hitting this. And it's like, you're, you're, you're, you're lucky if I let you on this ride. Exactly. You know what I mean? Like if I did this for investors, dude, like you're going to lose big time. You know what I mean? Like. And what do you think about that? Like building for you, like knowing your core, your core, your authenticity, leading with that, as you build product and build your audience, what's your take on that versus what you think some people want to see or the right way might be?

Nikhil Vil: No, I mean, I, I'm a big champion of this, I think, uh, you know, and I, I'm not like. I'll say it like this. I think there's, I think there is something as being like too, contrarion where you, where you isolate yourself for reasons you should like, it's good to have an audience. It's going to have a group, right.

It's not going to just deny everything for no reason, but in particular, in this case, like for sure, um, I'm a hundred percent on the side of like, build for you build for your team. Right. If you've got co-founders, we've got people that you're working with. You know, I think building for investors means you're setting yourself up to possibly [00:06:00] giveaway, you know, like what 51% of your company, which sounds like pretty miserable.

It sounds like a very miserable ending. 

Jeremy: Sounds like you're not an entrepreneur. It sounds like you're working for someone else. 

Nikhil Vil: I mean, frankly, that is exactly what it sounds like. I mean, if we're going towards acquisitions, right? Like why, why should, you know, investors who might not be doing anything? Um, get most of that cut instead of you, like, I mean, Sure everyone should get paid and go home well, but I mean, the people who really put their blood, sweat and tears in it need to need to be properly, uh, you know, compensated and I need to be able to move forward to do bigger, better things.

Right. Like I think that's pretty, um, you know, I, I want that to be the popular opinion. I'm not sure, you know, and maybe in the no code verse for startups in that space with what the opinion is right now, I'm still trying to learn, um, you know, little bit of that, that outsider and me coming in here, but I'm trying to like dive in deeper and I think.

I think in general, a lot of people in the no-code community are frankly, pretty, pretty much on the same track as you're talking about though. Just because there are a lot of them are indie makers of bootstrappers who, you know, sort of stand by those beliefs and are just building these incredible tools.

But Hey, I'd love to hear, you know, any insight or any pushback if I'm, if I'm not on the right. No, 

Jeremy: dude, I, I do believe that like, it's not about me being like, or I wouldn't say be a contrarian for Contrarian's sake. Right? Like, but. You could go, I just take this logic. I just reverse engineer it. You can go into a hundred investor meetings.

Right? And you, you are going to strike out on 96% of them. You're only going to get 4% to say yeah. Event, like in theory. Right. Right now they say even 99. Right. But I don't even take it to 96. So you get 4%, right. Dude, do that process of talking to 100 investors is hell. It's like, if you like that, you're a funder, right?

Yeah. So like, if you, you need to stay in the, you need to enjoy that. Right. So you need to do it how you want to do it, because if like, so I go, you're doing it for, if I bought heads with a, an investor that's like it, no, this is for us. And it's like, Here's the real thing is like, no, it's not for you. Right?

Like, so like, if you want to come and you want to say. That thing to me, I'm going to like lovingly tell you absolute, like my thoughts. Right? So I was like, no, it's not for you. It's like, well, you know, right there, that's a hard, no, you don't know. Like it's like bullshit up. And like, it's like, great. I get my personality out there right away.

So it's like, you know what you're getting into. Right. You fucking listen to one of my podcasts and go. I love this guy or I don't like this guy, so it's not like me bringing someone on the pod and going like, Oh yeah, let's do it. Right. So it's like, I don't, I'm not a contrarion for Contrarian's sake. I'm just like unapologetically like me because otherwise dude, I try to think 90% of people fail and give up on this.

Why do you think I'll ask you. Why do you think that is? Like, why do you think 90% of people absolutely fail doing what we're doing right now? Being an entrepreneur? 

Nikhil Vil: Yeah. I mean, I think part of it really comes down to it's that like, The rejection is hard. And the process of getting, you know, argue, even arguing or even having, you know, sort of like the, those kinds of discussions where people doubt you.

I mean, that's a hard thing to get through. There's a lot of, there's a lot of grit that's necessary. There's a lot of understanding of, you know, the, uh, that this happens to everyone. I think there's just a general, there's a lot of people that set the wrong expectations coming in, right. They maybe don't do the right research.

They don't really know. You know, it's not even, like, I'll say one thing that I, this is a little bit contrary to be, to say, but I don't think you need to be part of like a million communities to understand it. I think you can do a lot of reading. Like I I'm sorry. I just can't. I can not confidently give that advice anymore because I think that could actually waste time from building product, right?

Like I don't, I don't think you need to start a startup by joining a hundred Slack groups that help you with product management and development help and whatever. Those could be great sources to hire people, mind you, so it could work for that. But you know, being an engaged in those is. You know, to a certain degree, you have to, you have to limit yourself to where you're even social media usage.

Like, I mean, when I'm working, when I'm heads down on a new venture, like you're, I'm going dark for a few weeks. Like, you know, maybe weeks, maybe months, but like, that's just, you have to be able to sacrifice some things and you have to understand that it's going to be a pretty inconsistent process. And you're saying that yourself or the what the investor stuff, right.

Is that it's an inconsistent, you know, 96% of them are just going to be like, they could be very terrible. And people don't love it and consistency. Right. There's there's a lot of, that's a man, that's a human nature, so, 

Jeremy: right. It's so, it's so funny. Like, so I think at some point I, I flipped that switch of giving a fuck.

No, like, no, like, because if you do care, it's like, and you go in, I've had so many investors waste my time and they know, and they always end up not always, but they, they end up saying no for the stupidest. Reason that could have been sauced out at the very beginning. Absolutely. Right. Like before taking three meetings, like every investor wants a different fucking chore.

I call it shore now where I'm like, Oh, you want to see this report asshole? You know what I mean? Like, this is my real take where it's like, dude, no, I'm not doing that for a 25 check. Right. You know what I mean? It's like, Oh, I agree. I don't know. So like, I kind of look at that and go, I don't think until you've experienced that, like wasting and putting so much effort into one investor where it's like, how do you, how would you, cause you're an angel investor, right?

I am. Yep. Yep. Great. So like how do you suss that out or a deal at the beginning? You know what I mean? Like we're on the flip side of it, where I go. Motherfucker. You could've figured that, like I got to know the other, like, uh, I haven't been raising actively, but like a few months ago it was like you had a market concern, motherfucker, like a market that could have like, literally market concern is on first meeting.

Right? Like you're literally, and that's a, that's an easy one, but like how do you figure it out on the flip side, early on, if it is, or isn't for you? Take me to that progression. If you, if you're listening 

Nikhil Vil: to a pitch. Sure. Sure. And I'll put a full disclaimer, you know, I think VCs and angels do function differently.

So, you know, I'm like definitely I'm in the area. We have understanding that yeah. You know, VC firms have way more people probably hitting them up than they're hitting up. You know, someone like myself and my peers or things like that. Like I, I get that and that does lead to different sorts of conversations.

But you know that as an angel, I feel like I have what I love about, you know, even doing it in the first place and giving back to startups. I do a lot of advising, I'd say as well. Is just the ability to sort of come down to the level of the founder a little bit more than potentially some firms can just because, you know, like I said, they're, they're too busy, so.

It's it's transparency for one. I know everyone preaches that. I cannot say every VC out there does, you know, practice what they preach. But for me, I, if I'm not transparent about what I think and my methodology I've already failed the company I'm talking to. Right. And I'm also a huge believer in like, you know what?

It might not work out. It might not be a great fit, but let's have a, like, let let's have the conversation. Like. You know, pitch me, but let's not, you know, let's have the, you know, not like uncomfortable per se, but the things that might be the concerns, you know, rather than it being, like, if you're saying that be pushed to like five different calls or something like that, like let's just put it up front.

Right? Like I'm, I'm about that. And. Like I said, other anything else is a disservice and a waste of your time and my time. Right. So for me, it's about, you know, it's a, it's, it's putting out that methodology really upfront too. Like, as I'm getting to know someone before they pitch me, I, I do my best to help them out.

I'm like, here's the philosophies I live on. Here's some of the methodologies here are the Paul Graham essays that I've been reading to, you know, think about this, right. Here's the, here's another thing, like not to sound cliche, but I mean, there are helpful things. And I, I also, I also do straight up get people who, you know, they're kind of like.

They they're skeptical. Right. They're just like, all right, well, you know, as an angel, um, you know, where's your, like I admit I have an angel invested in a ton of properties that are kind of ventures rather. And, um, you know, I have, I sub ways to go to reach, you know, some people's crazy numbers of, of being able to invest in a lot of companies that at once.

But, um, you know, I think part of it is, you know, like it has to be a journey. When you're bringing an angel on, I think it is an opportunity for a journey to really be together, right? Because angels can lock you into VC deals, right. And just can lock you into some, some very, you know, big opportunities that might not require as much equity, right?

Like, I mean, dangerous. There's a lot of different people with different motives and I think there's flexibility to it. So, you know, I make that, that flexibility on my end, very clear. I make it clear, you know, where, where I get my learning, where I get my methodology. And I, you know, try to be my best, try to do my best to, uh, really not necessarily just leave it up to theory or something like that, but really leave it to, you know, what I've been learning, what I've been seeing my experience in the industry, you know, big clients that I've worked with, small clients that I've worked with through the years in different like innovation and R and D aspects.

There's so many different ways to look at it and you know, that I like to be pretty good. I love talking about it. I could, if there could be. You know, more, I need to get on more like clubhouses or something to talk about it, because I think there's so many cool learnings to discuss with people, but yeah, that's just sort of a starting point, you know?

Hopefully that makes sense. And, uh, yeah, I think it does make sense and no code if you want me to like, 

Jeremy: no, no, no, let's not, but no, I love, I love the organic flow of these secure, you know, it's like all, like it's like, uh, when I go into, when I take no code, it's like, All business information is good for no coders, right?

Like, or no code CEO is you're like at the end of the day, when we talked about this before I pressed record, like, dude, it is about building a business around NoCode, like these no code, uh, folks who build with us or build with whoever and are, there's no code CEO's, they're gonna want to raise money and prove concept and do all these other things.

Exactly. And it's like, We, we, I want to even go back to one of the earlier points that we were talking about, which is, um, the bullshit on the social things. And I remember seeing one of your retweets about like Elon Musk, what was it? It was so many people are like following Ilan, mosque and shit. And it's like, but just to be your own entrepreneur, right?

Like who gives a fuck, whatever it was Twitter, it was like, who gives a fuck to be your own, be your own entrepreneur? And I'm like, yeah, dude, dude, how many people. That you, you see this where they're like, why are you following these people constantly and obsessed with these people? Like, go not only be your own entrepreneur, but like go, just do entrepreneurship, just go do entrepreneur.

You know? So like how much of that do you see getting in the way as you like prospect something or build something or you see it in the community? 

Nikhil Vil: Yeah. Well, first of all, shout out to Andrew metal, like metal spelled, like the, the name like that. He's at Andrew metal on Twitter who tweeted that, um, he's actually really champion exactly what you're talking about.

Um, because he's like, I think he's definitely in that, in that same mindset of like, you know what, you know, if you're, if you're bootstrapping do it, if you're venture capital raising, do it, but just do it, like start somewhere. And I think he runs a pretty large podcast as well and things like that. So he's a great resource on Twitter and I only recently started following him, but I've been.

So you threw a step and that tweet was just like, it was so perfect because I do respect Ilan, you know, all, all things aside. And I do follow him to some extent, because I like Tesla. That's, that's my big thing. I'm I'm, you know, in the, in the waitlist for a cyber truck, like I'm not going to deny it. It's, I'm pretty excited to get that in, you know, whenever it's going to come out.

But the thing about the thing about, you know, even thinking like that, the way people worship some CEOs is Elon. Elon’s like. It's Elon it's like Bezos. It was jobs. I think people tunnel vision themselves into trying to be like a single person, which is like, I guess that organically happens. Right. You just tend to see the person who's most active or has the most books on them.

And most like news articles. But, um, you know, to be honest, I think there's so much to learn from people who really don't like talk about as much. Right. I think for example, You know, I, I know that a lot of people have been looking at lat 10 of recently, right. From, from Robin hood. And I know that he's, he's being more scrutinized than respected right now, but you know, on, on the like separate note, I have been following his work and some of the stuff that he did with his founders at Robin hood for a little longer now.

And that's just like, there's a different part of the journey to look at their right and take inspiration from. Um, you know, the people at like, buffer, like those they're insane, man. Like I, I don't know how they, they took the world by storm. They took the sort of marketing world by storm, so well, but I like, I've been following them for quite a while now.

And it's just, it's so crazy to see that journey. Shopify I've definitely [00:19:00] been, you know, follow up there of some of their, uh, you know, internal people, product people, like things like that since the earlier days. And just, just being able to take some time. Look for some of those like underdogs and, and even like, look for companies that you want to like, just predict that they're going to be big.

Right? Like that's sometimes a fun activity and then follow their phones to where they're going. That's 

Jeremy: that's interesting. Yeah, dude, that's a brilliant piece of fucking advice. That's 

Nikhil Vil: really brilliant. Put time into that. Like, 

Jeremy: dude. Yeah. That's so true. Like I think for, sorry, 

Nikhil Vil: go. I was gonna say quickly, one founder, I got to mention right now and he has blown up, but it's, it's all because of really the pandemic and he's, he's really like the info that's come out is really, uh, important and contextual to the time.

But, um, at like Chris heard, as Chris underscore heard he's, uh, he's the founder of first base HQ, which is a remote first company. So, yeah, sorry. I should, maybe I should mention for our no-code people, bubble is also great a company to follow 

Jeremy: listen now with the no code, but like, Um, I want to get the people that aren't just know coders and like educate them.

So I love not the dude sometimes at no code dude right now is just like a bunch of the same people. That's true. So it's like just talking to the same people, giving the same shout outs. Yeah. Yeah. So 

Nikhil Vil: like this guy that I mentioning, I mean, he, he now owns the narrative and I think even it's going to start like a remote company, like he started a fund that helps companies that want to build tools for larger companies to go remote or something.

Like, and that's all within a year he's been able to build into like an angel network. He's been able to build out this product, which has like thousands of people on the wait list. I don't even think it's out yet, but just through tweeting, just through sharing that journey, um, you know, and, and sharing his like advice.

Through his journey. He's been able to share advice cause he's running a company remote and he's building a company for remote. So he was able to sort of like eat his own dog food in like the coolest way possible as he's expanding his company. And, you know, I, I think he went from like, I don't know, like 3000 to 35,000 Twitter followers, something within a year or some, some crazy figure like that, which I just like noticed one day, I'm like, Holy shit.

Like this guy, he's all over LinkedIn now. And that kind of advice. I mean, but I remember I was just like, I followed him because I was like, I agree with the idea of going remote. And I just want to see like where his company goes, because I've seen people in the space try it. Um, and yeah, it's anyways, it's, it's important to do things like that because.

You're just getting different perspectives and that's where, you know, just following Ilan and just believing that Elon has journeys, the only way to take it. I mean, most people won't admit that that's what they're doing. They'll say, Oh, that sounds foolish. But then they'll say like, wait a minute, I only read resources from these like big CEOs, right?

I'm not really looking at anything else. Like I think that that leads to a lot of transformation in a founder's journey, uh, or an a, you know, first, first time CEO's journey all the way to a fifth time CEO's journey. Like. Either way, lot of value to be had from, from looking at multiple sources.

Yeah. I think it might be muted, Jeremy.

Jeremy: Oh dude. Yeah, I fought. No. Can you hear me? Yeah, I can hear it now. Yep. Oh yeah. What the fuck? I don't know. I think I might've moved up. Yeah, no, no. Leaving this end. Oh man. Right. Rah, rah. I want people you want to know? What's funny. Do you want to know what dead air? If you listen to that in the car as you're driving, then you said, I think you're on mute and I, you didn't hear anything you want to know for a second.

You get out of your head and you think about that. Hey, you're like, why did did it? So it's like, it literally it's raw, it's authentic. It's real life. It happens. Right? Like totally. And you're thinking this doesn't normally what, right. So it's like, I'll kind of shift gears so like that, or I'm just good at selling anything mute fucking my fuck ups.

So like, uh, dude, I love what you said. Like literally it was one of the greatest points and I think, uh, I've worded at once as. Don't compare yourself to Elon Musk. And that's what people do when they follow it. Or if you compare yourself to the next level of magnitude. Yeah. Right. So like that's as close as I've worded what you've just said, which is compare yourself to the people that are like, or, or what I mean with compare yourself, to like follow the people that are like a little bit ahead of you.

Right? Like follow those journeys, learn from where they're at right now. And it's like, because real talk. You're most likely not going to be Ilan. No. And I mean, so like, 

Nikhil Vil: like his journey also, I mean, where are you on the clubhouse of his, by any chance? 

Jeremy: No, I want, see, I'm not a, I'm not, I don't like, I haven't been, I've been grinding my stuff.

Right. So it's like, I try to eat my own dog food. 

Nikhil Vil: You know, it's pretty, it's pretty time consuming, but I love the app because there are some really good conversations, but Ilan said it brilliantly. He said, because they asked him this question that I was even surprised was kind of asked, but maybe it makes sense to ask him what would you.

Say to people that want to follow your journey. And he said, don't, he said, this shit sucks. If you want word of affirmation, words of affirmation or whatever you want, you want people to like push you forward in some way, don't do this. Like, you know, don't, don't try to there's this summit. Like you're going to be eating glass and it's going to be disgusting.

It's going to be rough. Like, it was just an incredible, it was incredible to me that he just like. I don't know if you just like push that forward. So like, and some people will disagree, right? Some people will be like, well, you try to need support. You should have support groups, which I also agree with, but it's still, if I know what he was saying.

And even if it's very like blunt, it makes sense. Like you just got to understand that his journey was not beautiful at all. It's beautiful now, or it might seem beautiful to some people now and very attractive and appealing, but. You know what he went through to get there. He went broke. You had to borrow money for rent.

I mean, read the stories, right? Like Steve jobs, like I still know people who don't know that Steve jobs was kicked out of his own company. You know, a little company called Apple for, for several years started Pixar, which is great. But you know, that that's the kind of conversation like that's the crazy thing is that you've got to be able to look at different perspectives and you got to look, you know, no one, I saw a great, another great tweet.

I can just talk about tweets all day. That was like nobody tweets about the investments that failed. Like I 

Jeremy: saw that one. Who was that? Did you retweet it? Maybe I saw it then 

Nikhil Vil: I don't, I don't know if I retweeted it, but, um, shoot, I think he's one of the former, I think he's, I think he's very big in the angel community.

I got to remember who it was. It was just one of those like passing. Passing like things that I was like, click and I didn't check again who it was, but, um, I'll try to remember who it was. So I have too many fault, like too many people I follow. Right. So a different problem there, but yeah, like I, I saw that in and it's even for startups, right?

That's for ventures, the same thing, like, you know, I'll say it I've had a failed venture and you know, it was, it was a like totally, you know, very cohesive process to end it, but it still sucked afterwards. Like it wasn't, you know, glad it was. Yeah, like a mutual thing with a, co-founder glad it sort of like fizzled away without a lot of issues, but yeah.

How did you fail? It was a product market fit. Yeah. I was doing a co I was doing a startup that was in the hospitality industry and was with artificial intelligence. Definitely, definitely not a low code thing. It was a very, you know, high level project, a lot of crazy things going on. And we just couldn't find the product market fit because the hospitality industry moves at a, at a rate that I do not think a lot of survive, like startups can survive and thrive in.

Um, especially if you're working directly, you know, integrating technologies into things like hotels and hospitals and things like that. So, um, and that's what we were aiming for. And you know, what we aim for the moon. We, we had a chance to go through an accelerator. That was, that was for sure, you know, for me, it was a great time to just understand what I wanted to do.

Moving forward, right. Philosophies, methodologies, and, and a sudden me to where I am now, you know, doing angel investing and everything else that I do in sort of the R and D startups, even the e-sports world that I'm in, you know, sort of involved in right now as well. Like, there's, it, there's just a lot of inspiration to take away from that.

And I'm, I'm okay with talking about it, you know, it's like, you don't have to flaunt it all the time or whatever, but it's, it's something to at least talk about. It's something to at least share. And, you know, I hope that you founders understand that like, Failing, you know, that is part of the process. And, you know, going back, I'll take it full circle to one of your initial questions where you mentioned, you know, uh, the idea of like, why people don't do it.

That is why, like, I mean, failure is extremely hard to fail and it's extremely hard to come back sometimes with the same energy that you had before you did. Um, especially if it's sort of like, uh, you know, if it's literally straight up shutting the company down, so yeah. That's just like a stream of consciousness I wanted to share, but you know, hopefully that answers the question.

Jeremy: Well, no, it does. Yeah. Like the long way around. No, not really. We still, yeah, we still got there. So like, uh, I want to close with this, the number one biggest pro tip that you can give to. Uh, business people and a  lot of the young, no coders out there that you see, uh, biggest, biggest, biggest piece of advice that you might have.

Nikhil Vil: Okay. Yeah. So, um, let me, I'm trying to figure out a good way to, I knew this question was coming, but I still want to formulate it well, 

Jeremy: should we go dead? Dead pause again? 

Nikhil Vil: Why? No, no, it's all good. I think I got it. I think I got it. So, all right. In my opinion, no code and low code is very, very important for the future of startups right now.

I don't even think everyone realizes it yet, but, you know, I created, like I've just been creating some really crazy things with tools like and, um, or runway and like, Some of the no-code like AI tools. And I got to say, we're coming up to an incredible time. Uh, you know, at the moment, like just to share what I do other than angel investing, I'm currently head of operations at a, at a company called chat mode.

We specifically, we're a Microsoft partner that we work on a lot of R and D and AI things specifically. And I just want to say like, You know, I live in that ecosystem a little bit more right now and what I'm seeing happening there too. Like these startups are putting so much pressure on big companies to go low-code and no-code, and that's about, that's about to continuously explode as if no code, no code already has exploded in the right direction.

But as if, you know, founders think that there aren't enough resources, there's plenty more on the way. So, you know, Microsoft's. Is really doubling down on their power automate resources that allow a robotic process automation to become no code and AI modeling to become no-code UI path. Right? One of the biggest RPA tools on, on the planet is like, you know, they have a no code studio with their UI paths, apps, projects, which I've played with.

And, um, I know Google is doing something I know like just, I mean, even Amazon I'm sure is probably they, they gotta be looking into something at this point because. I know for things like conversational AI, Alexa, and some of the tools that they have back there. Like they've been trying. Things in the background, I had to make a drag and drop to create Alexa skills rather than having it be, you know, code deployment.

So there's like, there's something in the water. And I just want to share from my experience where I'm working out right now, I'm, I'm sort of at a, at a point where I'm working like on the cusp of some really incredible things. And the fact that no code can help be prototype that and do mock implementations and, and actually like straight up, help me do something like machine learning, modeling faster, and image recognition and things like that.

That's incredible. That's just so I don't even know how to say it. Like I, I think I can't stress the importance enough. And for CEOs out there who are thinking like, gosh, I don't know if I have the right tools to start. I don't know. I don't know if I have the right tools to validate. I mean, I don't know if that's an excuse anymore, right.

Or, you know, like I know there's certain products that bot have certain boundaries and things, but you know, there's Shopify Squarespace, WordPress have become very no-code friendly now and integrate with all your favorite tools. There's just so many, like there's so many people doubling down on it. You know, from a startup perspective, which makes it, you know, a low barrier entry, but the big companies are sort of releasing their, their tools now.

And they're probably going to be competitive on pricing too, which makes it much easier for, you know, it's great for the no-code CEOs, right. Especially, you know, if you're a younger CEO, maybe if you're fresh out of college, like you might not have the most money to invest in a startup right now, but. No code, no code is about to make things so much, so much more possible consistently.

Like what the new tools coming out with the new capabilities. And like I said, these big companies are going to offer these tools. Smaller startups will offer more specialized tools and that's just. That's just incredibly important. Like, I don't know how to, like, like I said, I wanted to put my experience in there because I, you know, like I said, I do work with a lot of like higher, you know, I really do need code and I really do like more complex implementations, but the fact that I can do so much prototyping and offer so much value to fortune 500 clients that I happen to work with, or, you know, middle, uh, sort of, mid-market like large enterprises that I work with that being able to show them that and validate, you know, really big R and D experiments to me.

It's just crazy. It just cause cause one on one hand you could go and you can build these entirely crazy demos and, and have your dev team spent hours and hours just like sifting through information, making new models, or you have these amazing no-code tools where you could literally do it while you sleep.

Right. And you can set up. You can set up things with drag and drop, which allows, you know, you're the marketing people that you're working with that allows, uh, you know, the, the sales people, like it allows anybody, your product, people, your non-technical product, people on a team to be able to be involved with the technical part and actually learn from it.

That's the, that's the extension of this is that you've got people on your team who are non technical, who can become technical by leveraging no-code solutions, where all they have to do is drag and drop. And the platform kind of explains it to them and explains what's going on and allows them to get a little more hands-on.

So, you know, web web flow is making, it looks like Photoshop, right? That's the brilliant part of it. It's not, it's not a new interface and, you know, designers know Photoshop, marketers know Photoshop, photographers, know Photoshop. They can get into web flow and be like, wait, now I can create websites. Now I can, now I can create web apps, like.

With the same mindset that I have when I'm looking at a Photoshop interface like that, that bridge is so insane. And I want to bring it back to my, my methodology because I, you know, I'm trying to get bigger as an angel. I'm, I'm not really taking new companies right now, but in the future, like, you know, aiming to, to, uh, you know, start a rolling fund and, and work with other funds, potentially an angel groups and things like that.

Um, I want to see companies come to me with no code solutions that they whipped up, and I want that to be, I want people to be confident. When they come to me with that, like don't, don't even hide it. Tell me the tools that you use. Tell me that you understand, you know, what what's going on. And, you know, tell me how you were crafty with the validation.

Because to me, that's validation of you as a founder, finding all the resources that's resourcefulness at its at its peak. That's what I think no-code has really become right now. And I I'm just damn impressed at the things that I've seen in the community. And, you know, generally, like I said, I'm, I'm only getting into the no-code community now, but I have been using no code tools for quite some time and have been experimenting with it already.

And. It's just incredible, man. Like there's just so many, there's so many ways that you can get started down and, um, you know, the, there's just a, it's going back to that whole like founder issue, right? Like if, if you're, if you're not even willing to work with the tools you have right now, you know, you might have to reassess whether you want to be an entrepreneur or not, but if you're ready to dig down and really get to it, I mean, there's, like I said, you can literally.

Dude like machine learning models and mock artificial intelligence with these no-code solutions. And that's gotta be something that's gotta be something that feature of, of product development. So you believe that too. That's my mega pro tip. It's like, that's, that's like a selection of prototypes, but I'll put it all under one thing 

Jeremy: that is a novel approach.

I love that, 

Nikhil Vil: but I, I, I categorized it. So, you know, we'll, we'll have a count like that. 

Jeremy: I love it, dude. Where Nicole, where can people find you? 

Nikhil Vil: Twitter, the bet is the best place I'm at Nick. So that's Enrique the IML. Um, I tweet about startups, PC e-sports cool. Stuff like that. Um, definitely exploring no-code a lot more.

And, uh, you know, one of the, like, you know, just to, to plug myself a little bit, one thing that I, I will be trying to treat about a little bit more is that, you know, bridge of AI and intelligence, you know, like mocking up and prototyping, Using, um, using no-code solutions. I really want to turn that into some, be like a video series, be it a medium sub stacked somewhere.

I'm going to have something about that, because like I said, I just work in an ecosystem right now, specifically where, um, there's going to be, you know, Microsoft is going to make some big moves that I would love to share, but I also want to share that, you know, the startups that are working on this and other companies out there that are excelling in it and.

I just want, you know, I want founders to see that there's options to be on the cutting edge without necessarily having to be, you know, a computer scientist for 15 years. Right? Like it's ready to happen. It's, you know, when you're, when you're scaling great, like you can hire your CTO's. You can hire your head of engineering is like, there will be a time for different things, but when you're getting started and when you really want to validate ideas, build products, I mean, if you're a college student, like even building no-code solutions and showing that understanding is enough, like that's enough to be a resume piece.

Like I don't necessarily think you need to necessarily do anything. Like that could at least depending on where you want to go for products. Roles, specifically product management and stuff. No-code solutions are very easy ways to get jobs. So sorry. I was talking to someone the other day who actually like asked me something along the lines of that.

And I realized like, huh, I just realized that like I could hire, I could feel so comfortable hiring people if they could show me that they made like no-code slash low-code solutions where they understood that like, Cutting edge stuff that we're working with, right. Or the systems that they were working with and how it all came together.

Because AP, you know, it takes a level of, of, uh, understanding to get Zapier working right with, with web flow and with these AI tools and things like that. So, um, you know, power to the people with no code, like there's so many different ways it can go and, sorry, [00:37:00] bomb, plug aside. I just want to write about it.

I want to explore it further. Um, maybe I need to come back on this podcast or something. Right. And I didn't have a sense what we're going to do. Yeah. Cause I'm more than down. I'm more than down to continue sharing, you know what I'm finding? And I want to say, like I said, I just want to see startups coming to me that are like, we made this with notebook low-code solutions.

We know what it's going to take to build it further, but heres at least a prototype and validation with real users who are sort of in a more mock environment, you know, building like data for us. Right. But the proprietary part. Yeah. So yeah, 

Jeremy: that's what I'm going to, we'll have to have you come 

Nikhil Vil: back on next.

I, you know, I'll be more than down, you know, I'll be more than down. I had a lot of fun, Jeremy, thanks so much for having me, 

Jeremy: dude. I love this. Thanks so much for coming on and I look forward to getting you back on here. Yeah, 

Nikhil Vil: absolutely. All right. Take care.

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